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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Eric,<br>
Thanks for sticking with me on this. OK, that makes more sense.
You're not saying that it's an unregulated float, but only that
float will allow load to pass through as needed to maintain float
voltage, up to the limit of either the available array or the
controller's capacity, whichever is less. <br>
<br>
I still wonder whether a modest load on the charge during bulk
would likely prevent the controller from ever reaching the bulk
voltage, given that the module would be operating above its MPP
knee, and thus with greatly reduced current (depending on
temperature and other factors). If that occurred, would the
controller just stay in bulk mode indefinitely?<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">
<title></title>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
<small><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font
color="#000099" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a></small><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></font>
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On 6/4/2013 3:02 PM, <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com">Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com</a> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:OF0DC12FDE.7B5BBD37-ON88257B80.00701A77-88257B80.007330C5@US.Schneider-Electric.com"
type="cite">
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">Allen,</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">The C-series will provide 100%
duty
cycle until the bulk voltage is reached. Assuming no load, duty
cycle will
be reduced</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif"> thru the absorption stage to
hold
the battery at the bulk level (this occurs due to the internal
resistance
of the battery increasing,</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif"> requiring less and less current
to hold the battery at bulk). After 1 hour, the C-series will
reduce the
duty cycle even more to allow </font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">the battery to drop to a float
level.
Duty cycle will increase up to 100% while in float if load
demand if present.
If load exceeds solar </font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">watts, the voltage in the battery
will
drop. Once.5V below bulk setting (24V system), the C-series
starts a new
charge cycle. </font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">We are assuming NOTC of 20C
(68F), so
there will be some reduction of output at the bulk level.
Considering AGM
and gel batteries</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif"> would bulk around 28.2VDC,
efficiency
losses should not be too extreme. Also, when using battery temp
sensor,
the charger will</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif"> target lower charge voltage as
temp increases.</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">Obviously the MPPT would be
optimal,
with 2 or 3 modules in series.</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif">Eric Bentsen<br>
</font><font size="3" color="#008000">_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font
size="3">
<br>
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
Eric Bentsen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000"
face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b>
| Solar
Business</b> | <b>UNITED STATES</b> | <b>Technical
Support Representative</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com"><font size="1"
color="blue" face="Arial"><u>eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font
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| <b>Site:</b></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar" target="_blank"><font
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www.schneider-electric.com/solar</u></font></a><font
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| <b>Address:</b> 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551
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</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<br>
<br>
<table width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">From:</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Allan Sindelar
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><allan@positiveenergysolar.com></a></font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com">Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com</a></font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">06/04/2013 12:57 PM</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V
charging with
60 cell modules</font></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<hr noshade="noshade">
<br>
<br>
<br>
<font size="3">Eric,<br>
I understand what you write about PWM being able to do what MPPT
can't
because of the buck function, but not the rest. What I
understand you're
saying is that float mode on the C-series controller is
unregulated; that
is, rather than hold the battery to float voltage, it will pass
module
current through until Voc is reached, or until the battery rises
as high
as it is able given the available current. If so, that goes
against all
I have observed, and even against the concept of a regulated
float voltage.
<br>
<br>
David Katz wrote: "</font><font size="3" face="Verdana">You can
do it
if you don’t need much power. That module will float and
equalize
the battery but as the voltage rises, the current will drop
significantly.
I used one 230 watt module for a year to charge a 24 volt
battery
with an 11 watt load on it and it worked fine. It is probably
cheaper
than buying two 50 watt 36 cell modules and putting them in
series."
</font><font size="3">I accept that logic, although it breaks all
the old
rules. A 230W 20V module is cheaper than two 50W 12V modules - I
get to
explain that wackiness to customers on a regular basis. But the
kicker
is the 11W load - even if continuous, it's only 264
watt-hours/day, less
than two hours' output of the oversized module. My opinion is
that if the
load is much larger than that, the bulk setpoint, which triggers
the one-hour
absorption and transition to float, will never be reached. <br>
<br>
Brian's excellent post really captures the principles involved
well. As
battery voltage rises above Vmp, current drops sharply. It'll
work, sort
of, but is poor design.<br>
<br>
Also, you wrote "</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif">The
question
was making a single 24V module work with a 24V battery.</font><font
size="3">"
I assume that you meant "</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif">The
question
was making a single 20V module work with a 24V battery.</font><font
size="3">",
as that's the original issue, and this was just a typo. If not,
and you
meant what you wrote, we need to start over with this
discussion... <br>
Thank you., <br>
Allan<br>
</font>
<br>
<font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><font
size="2" color="blue"><u><br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font size="2"
color="#0000a1" face="Times New Roman"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a><font
size="2" face="Times New Roman"><br>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<b><br>
Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<b><br>
505 424-1112</b></font><font size="2" color="blue" face="Times
New Roman"><u><br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank"><font
size="2" color="blue" face="Times New Roman"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a><font
size="3">
</font>
<p>
</p>
<p>
<br>
<font size="3">On 6/4/2013 12:31 PM, </font><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com"><font
size="3" color="blue"><u>Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font
size="3">
wrote:</font>
<br>
<font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
Hi Allan,</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
The C-series behaves in the same way as if you were to connect
the module
directly to the battery, <br>
then watch a DC volt meter and disconnect/reconnect when the
bulk voltage
is reached to "hold" the battery <br>
at that level. It will hold at the bulk level for 1 hour, then
transition
to float.</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2"
face="sans-serif"><br>
If left connected without disconnecting, the voltage would
eventually climb
to Voc (approx 36VDC). So, while it is not <br>
going to be as efficient as the MPPT controller in the
bulk/absorption
stages, once the PWM controller transitions to float, <br>
it will operate right about the sweet spot (Vmp). The question
was making
a single 24V module work with a 24V battery.</font><font
size="3"> </font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
PWM is the only way to do it, as the MPPT requires a higher PV
voltage
due to the use of a buck transformer.</font><font size="3"> </font><font
size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
I will certainly pass on any recommendations for improvement
to our engineering
team, and <br>
I appreciate the feedback.</font><font size="3"> <br>
</font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
Eric Bentsen</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2"
face="sans-serif"><br>
</font><font size="3" color="#008000"><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font
size="3">
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
<br>
Eric Bentsen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000"
face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b>
| Solar
Business</b> | <b>UNITED STATES</b> | <b>Technical
Support Representative</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font
size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar" target="_blank"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>
www.schneider-electric.com/solar</u></font></a><font
size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Address:</b> 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551
</font><font size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u><br>
</u></font><font size="3" color="blue"><u><br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="www.schneider-electric.com/solar"><img
src="cid:part12.01020603.06050807@positiveenergysolar.com"></a><font
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*** Please consider the environment before printing this
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<br>
</font>
<table width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="top">
<td width="14%"><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f"
face="sans-serif">From:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td width="85%"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Allan
Sindelar </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><allan@positiveenergysolar.com></u></font></a><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches </font><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></u></font></a><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">06/04/2013 10:35 AM</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Re: [RE-wrenches] 24V
charging with
60 cell modules</font><font size="3"> </font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent
by:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<font size="3"><br>
</font>
</p>
<hr noshade="noshade"><font size="3"><br>
<br>
<br>
Eric,<br>
Please explain further, as what you wrote makes no sense to me.
Mac didn't
indicate whether he wanted to charge a flooded battery (~29.2V)
or sealed
(~28.4V). The C-series of PWM controllers has a fixed two-hour
absorption,
which it only counts down once the bulk voltage is reached. If
the bulk
voltage setpoint is above the MPP of the module, as it is in
this case,
how can it ever reach float, as you suggest?<br>
<br>
And further, this is spec-sheet calculation. In all but the
coldest winter
weather, the Vmp of the module will be lower still as the module
temperature
rises above 25ºC, and is likely to be even below the float
voltage in
hot weather. And in the winter, if the battery is also cold, it
will need
a higher voltage still to get fully charged.<br>
<br>
So I'm with Bob-O on this one. You can't charge a 24V battery
with a 20V
module. Please tell us how I'm wrong.<br>
Thanks, Allan<br>
<br>
P.S. - And while I'm on a virtual roll, please tell your
engineering folks
to build a charge controller with a higher voltage input window.
I don't
mean 600 volts at $1,500 or whatever it is; just higher than
150V. On a
48V system, we're stuck with series strings of three modules if
we use
the lowest-cost-per-watt 60-cell modules. That means that
systems have
to be designed with arrays in ~750-watt increments. Give us
another 50-100V
or so of headroom, so we can design with strings in multiples of
3, 4,
or 5. Outback, are you listening too? The Midnite Classic does
this for
us... Thanks.<br>
</font><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"><b><br>
Allan Sindelar</b></font><font size="3" color="blue"><u><br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font size="2"
color="#0000a1" face="Times New Roman"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a><font
size="2" face="Times New Roman"><br>
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<b><br>
Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<b><br>
505 424-1112</b></font><font size="3" color="blue"><u><br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank"><font
size="2" color="blue" face="Times New Roman"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a><font
size="3">
</font>
<p><font size="3"><br>
On 6/4/2013 10:43 AM, </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com"><font
size="3" color="blue"><u>Eric.Bentsen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font
size="3">
wrote: </font><font size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Hi Mac,</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2"
face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
A PWM charge controller, such as the C35, will work in this
application,
because it will <br>
act like a switch that connects the panel to the battery.
While the bulk
voltage will likely be slightly</font><font size="3"> </font><font
size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
higher than Vmp, once the controller transitions to float,
which is approx
27V for most battery types,</font><font size="3"> </font><font
size="2" face="sans-serif"><br>
it should allow the module to operate very close to Vmp. <br>
Typically, MPPT controllers require a higher Vmp than the
target charge
voltage.</font><font size="3"> </font><font size="2"
face="sans-serif"><br>
<br>
Eric Bentsen</font><font size="3" color="#008000"><br>
_____________________________________________________________________________________</font><font
size="3">
</font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b><br>
<br>
Eric Bentsen</b> | </font><font size="1" color="#008000"
face="Arial"><b>
Schneider Electric </b></font><font size="1" face="Arial"><b>
| Solar
Business</b> | <b>UNITED STATES</b> | <b>Technical
Support Representative</b> <b><br>
Phone:</b> +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001# | <b><br>
Email:</b> </font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>eric.bentsen@schneider-electric.com</u></font></a><font
size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Site:</b></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.schneider-electric.com/solar" target="_blank"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="Arial"><u>
www.schneider-electric.com/solar</u></font></a><font
size="1" face="Arial">
| <b>Address:</b> 250 South Vasco Rd., Livermore, CA 94551
</font><font size="3" color="blue"><u><br>
<br>
</u></font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="www.schneider-electric.com/solar"><img
src="cid:part22.04020201.00080203@positiveenergysolar.com"></a><font
size="1" color="#00a000" face="Arial"><br>
*** Please consider the environment before printing this
e-mail</font><font size="1" face="Arial">
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<br>
</font>
<table width="100%">
<tbody>
<tr valign="top">
<td width="15%"><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f"
face="sans-serif">From:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td width="84%"><font size="1" face="sans-serif">Mac Lewis
</font><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:maclewis1@gmail.com"><font size="1"
color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><maclewis1@gmail.com></u></font></a><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">To:</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">RE-wrenches </font><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></u></font></a><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Date:</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">06/04/2013 08:05 AM</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Subject:</font><font
size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><font size="1" face="sans-serif">[RE-wrenches] 24V
charging with 60 cell
modules</font><font size="3"> </font>
</td>
</tr>
<tr valign="top">
<td><font size="1" color="#5f5f5f" face="sans-serif">Sent
by:</font><font size="3">
</font>
</td>
<td><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><font
size="1" color="blue" face="sans-serif"><u>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</u></font></a></td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br>
<font size="3"><br>
</font>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<hr noshade="noshade"><font size="3"><br>
<br>
<br>
Hello wrenches, <br>
<br>
Is there a good method to charge 24V battery bank with single 60
cell modules?
Ideally, I'd like to charge a 24 V bank with a Kyocera
245GX-LFB.
However, at NOTC the Vmp is 26.8V. Any good way to do this?
<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance.<br>
-- <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mac Lewis </font>
<p><font size="2" color="#37605e">"Yo solo sé que no sé nada."
</font><font size="2" color="#5f5f5f">-Sócrates</font><font
size="3"> </font>
</p>
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