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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">At some point customers buying the
Walmart 3C (thanks Bob'O) inverters might be better off than those
poor bastards that spent much more on a TR or Apollo. At least
the cheapos either work or they don't. (unfused alligator clip
install anyone?) <br>
Overall this trend bodes very badly for those of us in the off
grid business trying to fend off the army of bad installers and
cheap chinese crap to demonstrate that PV systems really can be
reliable. What's left?<br>
There's Outback that seems to be slipping into corporate malaise
or Magnum, which is ok, but not as reliable as old Trace, and
definitely buggy in the generator charging department......<br>
Exeltech, the Maserati of sine wave inverters with perfect
waveform, but expensive and rather limited in surge capability or
battery charging..... and did I Ever tell the story of changing
out special order 35 amp glass fuses (4 in parallel) with a
surgeon's forceps in the field......because the customer
accidentally plugged in a coffee maker into an inverter rated at
1100 watts?<br>
I still have customers going 17 years on Trace SW4024s.... If
someone was still making those I'd be all over it. Slap in a
computer USB interface, and call it modern. They had adequate
voltage regulation and sinewave, good surge, a great charging
interface, and were reliable enough to have built the entire PV
industry up around.<br>
I'd say if it were not for Trace back then, that we'd all be
selling vacuum cleaners now. (and I'm not joking)<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 5/1/2013 7:30 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAOABG4-TvdEB9+hjtUckJiOev68g=5-_n2O-SvWGAeMXp40L4w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
I have had similar experience with Apollo. I have found the
config software to be very buggy and difficult to use, and I
believe having no way to change parameters on site without a
computer with a specialized connector and program is a mistake.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Kevin
Pegg <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kpegg@energyalternatives.ca" target="_blank">kpegg@energyalternatives.ca</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#ffffff">
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I
will similarly echo Allan's comments below re:
Apollo. They sent me the same 3224 inverter and
accessories to evaluate and try and gain my
business. The unit stat in boxes for some time until
last year when I decided to install and test out the
system. My bad judgement to put this in a remote
area, and to expect it to actually work. </span></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>The inverter
appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get
some charge into the batteries. No matter what I
tried I could not get the charge rate above 8A /
24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk
to Apollo and they tell me I need an RS485 interface
and software to program charge rate, that the
default setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I recall
him going on at length about why that's such a great
idea and not interested in my feedback as a wrench
why it in fact is a terrible idea. </span></font><font
face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I'm in the middle
of nowhere and I need that working now. I had RS485
interface gear with be but could not get it to work,
issues with firmware, serial numbers, etc, etc and
lost patience with doing this all over
satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a
few CFLs and a water pump as battery state was low.
It didn't have any issues with CFL's. </span></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>The DC
Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory
dead short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach
anything, etc. Tore it all apart and re-wired. </span></font><font
face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I purchased the
official RS485 interface but have not played with it
further since I can't see recommending anything as
poorly designed as this. </span></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Ditto
everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in
another direction. </span></font></div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Kevin</span></font></div>
</font></span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Tahoma">-----Original
Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<b>On
Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> May 1, 2013 12:16 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR
Inverter Problems)<br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div>In my opinion, based upon personal experience,
Apollo is not a company of high integrity, and I
would not encourage use of their products. I have
kept my mouth shut for too long.<br>
<br>
About three years ago, following a conversation
with CEO John Pfeifer at Solar 2009 in Anaheim, I
was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect
package to use in my own home, with the
understanding that if I liked it I'd use my bully
pulpit to spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep
my communication private with them - standard
stuff. Their inverter was advertised as being
configurable as either 120/240 or straight 120. I
requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had,
and because many off grid homes were set up this
way). I received a split-phase unit; when I
pointed this out, I was sent instructions on how
to do the internal wiring changes for straight
120. (First red flag: while advertised as either,
this may have been the first one tried this way.)
Upon boot-up, the inverter worked but could not
charge from a generator. Eventually, working with
tech support we determined that engineering had
put the hall-effect sensing transducer on the
neutral, rather than the hot. Once this was
corrected, it still didn't charge correctly, and
they sent a replacement unit. I used this for
about a year, and then the inverter's fan failed
in an "always on" mode; I learned that this isn't
a field repairable failure, but needed the unit
returned to the factory. They sent a replacement:
wouldn't charge. They sent a second replacement:
wouldn't charge either, but the symptoms were
different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at
Apollo, who had been aware of all of this, had
moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He
offered me a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a
one-time try-it-out price; I removed the Apollo
system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same
generator, and all has worked well since then.<br>
<br>
On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis to the head of
Apollo's tech support:<br>
<blockquote>Herb,<br>
As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo
equipment. When the fan control circuit on my
Apollo 3224 inverter (the second, and in use for
a bit over a year) failed in an "always on at
full speed" mode, you sent a refurbished
replacement, as this failure is not field
repairable. The replacement unit arrived a week
and a half ago, and would not charge. The
replacement for the replacement arrived on
Thursday (2nd day air) and also would not charge
- different technical issue, same net effect.<br>
<br>
There remain several fundamental issues with the
Apollo inverter that prevent it from being
marketable, in my opinion, along with numerous
minor deficiencies. <br>
1. In my application, with the unit installed
indoors, when charging at full capacity from a
generator, after about one to two hours the unit
shuts down from overheating, even with the fan
at full speed. The problem is that the entire
inverter shuts down, rather than just the
charger. <br>
2. As we have discussed previously, the inverter
is incapable of equalizing from my generator, as
it leaves EQ mode long before it has completed a
programmed cycle.<br>
3. The unit appears to be overly sensitive to
loads with poor power factor; when our
Electrolux vacuum cleaner is turned on, either
of two computers (one a Mac, the other
Windows-based) crashes consistently.<br>
<br>
And numerous minor issues and annoyances:<br>
4. Changing any setting requires connection to a
computer, and more computer literacy than some
customers would have, as the process is not
user-friendly.<br>
5. The fan's continuous periodic surge is
annoying.<br>
6. The units are not designed to allow field
service, so many problems require replacement of
the inverter.<br>
<br>
There are other issues, but this is sufficient
as to define the product as clearly not up to
the standards of current products on the market.</blockquote>
Meanwhile, early on when the problems appeared to
be getting resolved, I had recommended to a
long-time customer needing a major upgrade (that
required a shift from 1996-era SW4024 to a 48V
system) that we use Apollo equipment. As these
ongoing problems had not yet developed, he
accepted my recommendation. His Apollo system used
a 4048 inverter, with disconnect enclosure and two
T80 charge controllers. This unit was set up as
120/240, so we weren't repeating the same issues I
had had. I have forgotten many of the specifics,
but after numerous callbacks (and a very sharp and
involved homeowner) we ultimately pulled the
entire system out at our expense and put in a
Magnum MS4448PAE, E-Panel and two FM60s and all of
the problems went away.<br>
<br>
I cautioned John Pfeifer that this was a purchased
system for a customer, and I had not made the same
confidentiality agreement with it. He asked me not
to publicly air our experiences, and assured me
they would make everything right. <br>
<br>
On 8/11/11 I wrote him:<br>
<blockquote><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"
color="black"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt">John,<br>
We have completed removal of the Apollo
equipment. The [X] system is back up and in
full operation. We selected a Magnum
MS44448PAE inverter, mounted on a Midnite
Solar E-Panel, with dual Outback FM60 charge
controllers. This system package is is the
closest available to what made up the Apollo
package. I have attached before and after
photos of the swapout, which was completed
on Wednesday 8/3/11. <br>
<br>
I will be sending you billing by separate
email. I will describe here how I have
chosen to bill you, that represents the most
fair and ethical judgments I can determine.
First, I put together a package using
competitors' equipment that most closely
matched your package. For instance, I did
not include the generator start option, as I
had returned to you the one we didn't use
that was part of your package. Also, I did
not include any of the materials related to
online monitoring, as you had not charged me
for the communications gateway or the ASNET
kit. During the swapout, I instructed [my
technicians] to record separately that time
not directly attributed to warranty work, as
that will be billed directly to [X] (you
will see this as a line credit on the
invoice).<br>
<br>
All components were priced at our actual
cost, with no markup, as we had already made
our legitimate components profit when we
sold the hardware to <font size="3">[X]</font>.
Likewise, the materials used to swap out the
systems were estimated based on our costs,
rather than on retail prices. We added
actual shipping costs, and I have estimated
the freight to return the Apollo items to
you based on the actual charges for the
original items sent by you to us. In a
similar manner I discounted our travel
mileage to represent our estimate of actual
costs to us to operate our large service
truck on a per-mile basis.<br>
<br>
On labor, however, I elected to bill for
both the swapout labor and all of our
warranty service and travel labor at our
normal retail rates. This is because all of
the work to attempt to solve the many
problems with the Apollo equipment, to
communicate about the problems with you and
your staff and with [X], and ultimately to
replace the equipment, represent hours that
would have been available for other jobs,
had this ongoing effort not interfered, and
thus may be justly considered billable hours
at retail rates. Indeed, labor makes up the
majority of the bill. All of our dedicated
labor is documented, and I will send hard
copies of these records by mail. I have
quite the record of emails back and forth
with yourself, the Apollo engineers, and [X]
as we attempted to solve problem after
problem with this equipment. I did not
charge for some of our personal
conversations about this issue, or for the
(extensive) time collating records and
preparing this settlement invoice.<br>
<br>
The total invoice amount is $8,791.79.
Please send payment in full to us, such that
I may return the removed hardware to you and
this entire matter may be put behind us.<br>
Thank you,<br>
Allan<br>
</span></font></blockquote>
<font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">And
John replied:<br>
</font></font>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"
color="navy"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:navy;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">Thank
you for the photos. Both systems look
professional. I hope that you are both
satisfied with the way we worked out the
solution. This life is all about doing
the right thing and it makes me happy to
be able to do that whenever possible, no
matter how it has to be done. By the way,
we have recently fixed the last bugs that
you found for us. That was not our plan,
but we must move forward.</span></font></p>
<font face="Arial" color="navy"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;COLOR:navy;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">John
Pfeifer</span></font></blockquote>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"
color="black"><span style="FONT-SIZE:12pt"></span></font>We
received a payment from Apollo of $2,200, then
nothing more. Continuing to press the issue, on
2/8/12 I received the following from Apollo's CFO
(a different John):<br>
<blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">Hi
Alan,</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">I
am sorry for the delay in responding – we
are just a little short staff today w/
people out on vacation.</span></font><font
face="Arial"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Arial"> </span></font>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">As
far as sending payments – we will start
paying $1,000/month starting this week.
Once we get close to the final payment –
we will issue a call tag or arrange for a
truck to pickup the items.</span></font></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><font face="Arial"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">Thank
you for your help and I hope your health
continues to improve.</span></font></p>
<font face="Arial"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt;FONT-FAMILY:Arial">John</span></font></blockquote>
We received one $1,000 payment a month later and
nothing since then. We've written off the
approximately $5,600 still owed us. We have a
bunch of Apollo hardware here that we don't want
and can't sell.. We finally recently used some of
it for a trailer/portable system.<br>
<br>
David Katz's suggestion of an Apollo replacement
for a TR served as the trigger for me to finally
post our experiences here. Had Apollo kept its
agreement, you'd not be reading this and Apollo
would not have to deal with the effects of my
posting my experiences, if any. While their
failure to reimburse us for our troubles is the
main reason for this post, I'll repeat that the
equipment itself is not up to the standards of the
industry in my experience, and I'd be cautious
about using it in installations. <br>
<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<div><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan
Sindelar</b></font><br>
<small><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank"><font face="Times New Roman,
Times, serif" color="#000099"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a></small><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
<span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales
Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:505%20424-1112"
value="+15054241112" target="_blank">505
424-1112</a></b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a></span></font>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="MARGIN-RIGHT:722.25pt"><span
style="FONT-SIZE:10pt"><b><br>
</b></span></p>
<span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt"><br>
</span></div>
On 5/1/2013 11:21 AM, David Katz wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Ray
An Apollo inverter should fit on the same E-panel. I have using one on my off grid house for may years. They also have great remote monitoring over the internet.
David Katz
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, "Ray Walters" <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" target="_blank"><ray@solarray.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>I couldn't agree more Bob-O
Pharmaceutical company? Ethics? Opps.
I thought Schneider buying them would help, but they have no idea what
they're even selling these days. Have you seen their website? I can't
even find a spec sheet for the TR in all that "Solutions for PV systems"
mumbo jumbo.
Amazing that the Trace equipment line that basically put PV on the map,
is the bottom of the heap now.
I like your 3C term. I'll put that in our dictionary near PITA ( pain
in the a__ ) factor.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:303%20505-8760" value="+13035058760" target="_blank">303 505-8760</a>
On 4/30/2013 5:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded everyone's dough years ago.
Bob-O
On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
Ray,
I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem inverter.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.bluemountainsolar.com" target="_blank">www.bluemountainsolar.com</a>
t: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:541-568-4882" value="+15415684882" target="_blank">541-568-4882</a>
On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre>Hi Folks:
I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had another"installer" put in a Xantrex TR inverter.
We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 different places!
The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator.
You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider Tech support said that:
A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all incandescent........ hmmmm.
B) We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did)
C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output voltage and frequency very well at lower loads........ 2nd big hmmmmm.
I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years ago, but I couldn't recall the details. Now its all coming back to my feeble, aging brain. So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures for our ills? How would LED lighting behave? Should I throw a capacitor across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail......)
As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) support group,
</pre>
</blockquote>
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Mac Lewis<br>
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Roman';font-size:medium;color:rgb(255,153,0)"><b><font
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
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