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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=084325900-02052013>I
will similarly echo Allan's comments below re: Apollo. They sent me
the same 3224 inverter and accessories to evaluate and try and gain my business.
The unit stat in boxes for some time until last year when I decided to install
and test out the system. My bad judgement to put this in a remote area, and to
expect it to actually work. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=084325900-02052013></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=084325900-02052013>The
inverter appeared to work fine, but we really needed to get some charge into the
batteries. No matter what I tried I could not get the charge rate above 8A /
24VDC. Documentation was non-existent. Finally talk to Apollo and they tell me I
need an RS485 interface and software to program charge rate, that the default
setting is 10% of max charge. WTF? I recall him going on at length about why
that's such a great idea and not interested in my feedback as a wrench why it in
fact is a terrible idea. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2><SPAN class=084325900-02052013>I'm in the middle of nowhere and I need
that working now. I had RS485 interface gear with be but could not get it to
work, issues with firmware, serial numbers, etc, etc and lost patience with
doing this all over satellite. Never did get loads on it other than a few
CFLs and a water pump as battery state was low. It didn't have any issues
with CFL's. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=084325900-02052013></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=084325900-02052013>The DC
Disconnect was a marvel of mis-wiring with a factory dead
short and pre-cut wires that didn't reach anything, etc. Tore it all
apart and re-wired. </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=084325900-02052013>I purchased the official RS485 interface but have not
played with it further since I can't see recommending anything as poorly
designed as this. </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=084325900-02052013></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=084325900-02052013>Ditto
everyone's comments on the TR Series. Run, fast in another direction.
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=084325900-02052013></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=084325900-02052013>Kevin</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Allan
Sindelar<BR><B>Sent:</B> May 1, 2013 12:16 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] Apollo (was TR Inverter
Problems)<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>In my opinion, based upon personal experience,
Apollo is not a company of high integrity, and I would not encourage use of
their products. I have kept my mouth shut for too long.<BR><BR>About three
years ago, following a conversation with CEO John Pfeifer at Solar 2009 in
Anaheim, I was sent a production 3224 inverter/disconnect package to use in my
own home, with the understanding that if I liked it I'd use my bully pulpit to
spread the word and if I didn't I'd keep my communication private with them -
standard stuff. Their inverter was advertised as being configurable as either
120/240 or straight 120. I requested straight 120 (to replicate what I had,
and because many off grid homes were set up this way). I received a
split-phase unit; when I pointed this out, I was sent instructions on how to
do the internal wiring changes for straight 120. (First red flag: while
advertised as either, this may have been the first one tried this way.) Upon
boot-up, the inverter worked but could not charge from a generator.
Eventually, working with tech support we determined that engineering had put
the hall-effect sensing transducer on the neutral, rather than the hot. Once
this was corrected, it still didn't charge correctly, and they sent a
replacement unit. I used this for about a year, and then the inverter's fan
failed in an "always on" mode; I learned that this isn't a field repairable
failure, but needed the unit returned to the factory. They sent a replacement:
wouldn't charge. They sent a second replacement: wouldn't charge either, but
the symptoms were different. Ultimately, the Sales Manager at Apollo, who had
been aware of all of this, had moved west to do the same work at Magnum. He
offered me a Magnum MS4024AE with MMP at a one-time try-it-out price; I
removed the Apollo system, put in the Magnum, hooked up the same generator,
and all has worked well since then.<BR><BR>On 1/5/2012 I wrote this synopsis
to the head of Apollo's tech support:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Herb,<BR>As we have discussed, I have given up on Apollo
equipment. When the fan control circuit on my Apollo 3224 inverter (the
second, and in use for a bit over a year) failed in an "always on at full
speed" mode, you sent a refurbished replacement, as this failure is not
field repairable. The replacement unit arrived a week and a half ago, and
would not charge. The replacement for the replacement arrived on Thursday
(2nd day air) and also would not charge - different technical issue, same
net effect.<BR><BR>There remain several fundamental issues with the Apollo
inverter that prevent it from being marketable, in my opinion, along with
numerous minor deficiencies. <BR>1. In my application, with the unit
installed indoors, when charging at full capacity from a generator, after
about one to two hours the unit shuts down from overheating, even with the
fan at full speed. The problem is that the entire inverter shuts down,
rather than just the charger. <BR>2. As we have discussed previously, the
inverter is incapable of equalizing from my generator, as it leaves EQ mode
long before it has completed a programmed cycle.<BR>3. The unit appears to
be overly sensitive to loads with poor power factor; when our Electrolux
vacuum cleaner is turned on, either of two computers (one a Mac, the other
Windows-based) crashes consistently.<BR><BR>And numerous minor issues and
annoyances:<BR>4. Changing any setting requires connection to a computer,
and more computer literacy than some customers would have, as the process is
not user-friendly.<BR>5. The fan's continuous periodic surge is
annoying.<BR>6. The units are not designed to allow field service, so many
problems require replacement of the inverter.<BR><BR>There are other issues,
but this is sufficient as to define the product as clearly not up to the
standards of current products on the market.</BLOCKQUOTE>Meanwhile, early on
when the problems appeared to be getting resolved, I had recommended to a
long-time customer needing a major upgrade (that required a shift from
1996-era SW4024 to a 48V system) that we use Apollo equipment. As these
ongoing problems had not yet developed, he accepted my recommendation. His
Apollo system used a 4048 inverter, with disconnect enclosure and two T80
charge controllers. This unit was set up as 120/240, so we weren't repeating
the same issues I had had. I have forgotten many of the specifics, but after
numerous callbacks (and a very sharp and involved homeowner) we ultimately
pulled the entire system out at our expense and put in a Magnum MS4448PAE,
E-Panel and two FM60s and all of the problems went away.<BR><BR>I cautioned
John Pfeifer that this was a purchased system for a customer, and I had not
made the same confidentiality agreement with it. He asked me not to publicly
air our experiences, and assured me they would make everything right.
<BR><BR>On 8/11/11 I wrote him:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black size=3><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">John,<BR>We have completed removal of the Apollo
equipment. The [X] system is back up and in full operation. We selected a
Magnum MS44448PAE inverter, mounted on a Midnite Solar E-Panel, with dual
Outback FM60 charge controllers. This system package is is the closest
available to what made up the Apollo package. I have attached before and
after photos of the swapout, which was completed on Wednesday 8/3/11.
<BR><BR>I will be sending you billing by separate email. I will describe
here how I have chosen to bill you, that represents the most fair and
ethical judgments I can determine. First, I put together a package using
competitors' equipment that most closely matched your package. For instance,
I did not include the generator start option, as I had returned to you the
one we didn't use that was part of your package. Also, I did not include any
of the materials related to online monitoring, as you had not charged me for
the communications gateway or the ASNET kit. During the swapout, I
instructed [my technicians] to record separately that time not directly
attributed to warranty work, as that will be billed directly to [X] (you
will see this as a line credit on the invoice).<BR><BR>All components were
priced at our actual cost, with no markup, as we had already made our
legitimate components profit when we sold the hardware to <FONT
size=3>[X]</FONT>. Likewise, the materials used to swap out the systems were
estimated based on our costs, rather than on retail prices. We added actual
shipping costs, and I have estimated the freight to return the Apollo items
to you based on the actual charges for the original items sent by you to us.
In a similar manner I discounted our travel mileage to represent our
estimate of actual costs to us to operate our large service truck on a
per-mile basis.<BR><BR>On labor, however, I elected to bill for both the
swapout labor and all of our warranty service and travel labor at our normal
retail rates. This is because all of the work to attempt to solve the many
problems with the Apollo equipment, to communicate about the problems with
you and your staff and with [X], and ultimately to replace the equipment,
represent hours that would have been available for other jobs, had this
ongoing effort not interfered, and thus may be justly considered billable
hours at retail rates. Indeed, labor makes up the majority of the bill. All
of our dedicated labor is documented, and I will send hard copies of these
records by mail. I have quite the record of emails back and forth with
yourself, the Apollo engineers, and [X] as we attempted to solve problem
after problem with this equipment. I did not charge for some of our personal
conversations about this issue, or for the (extensive) time collating
records and preparing this settlement invoice.<BR><BR>The total invoice
amount is $8,791.79. Please send payment in full to us, such that I may
return the removed hardware to you and this entire matter may be put behind
us.<BR>Thank you,<BR>Allan<BR></SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=3><FONT
face="Times New Roman">And John replied:<BR></FONT></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thank you for the
photos. Both systems look professional. I hope that you are both
satisfied with the way we worked out the solution. This life is all
about doing the right thing and it makes me happy to be able to do that
whenever possible, no matter how it has to be done. By the way, we
have recently fixed the last bugs that you found for us. That was not
our plan, but we must move forward.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><FONT
face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">John
Pfeifer</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=black
size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"></SPAN></FONT>We received a payment from
Apollo of $2,200, then nothing more. Continuing to press the issue, on 2/8/12
I received the following from Apollo's CFO (a different John):<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Hi
Alan,<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I am sorry for the delay in
responding – we are just a little short staff today w/ people out on
vacation.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><O:P> </O:P></SPAN></FONT>
</P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">As far as sending payments – we
will start paying $1,000/month starting this week. Once we get close
to the final payment – we will issue a call tag or arrange for a truck to
pickup the items.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Thank you for your help and I
hope your health continues to improve.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT></P><FONT
face=Arial size=2><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">John</SPAN></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>We
received one $1,000 payment a month later and nothing since then. We've
written off the approximately $5,600 still owed us. We have a bunch of Apollo
hardware here that we don't want and can't sell.. We finally recently used
some of it for a trailer/portable system.<BR><BR>David Katz's suggestion of an
Apollo replacement for a TR served as the trigger for me to finally post our
experiences here. Had Apollo kept its agreement, you'd not be reading this and
Apollo would not have to deal with the effects of my posting my experiences,
if any. While their failure to reimburse us for our troubles is the main
reason for this post, I'll repeat that the equipment itself is not up to the
standards of the industry in my experience, and I'd be cautious about using it
in installations. <BR><BR>Allan<BR><BR>
<DIV class=moz-signature><FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><B>Allan
Sindelar</B></FONT><BR><SMALL><A
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"
color=#000099><U>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</U></FONT></A></SMALL><FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NABCEP
Certified Photovoltaic Installer<BR>NABCEP Certified Technical Sales
Professional<BR>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<BR>Founder and Chief
Technology Officer<BR><B>Positive Energy, Inc.</B><BR>3209 Richards Lane (note
new address)<BR>Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<BR><B>505 424-1112</B><BR><A
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target=_blank><U>www.positiveenergysolar.com</U></A><O:P></O:P></SPAN></FONT>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 722.25pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><FONT
face="Times New Roman, Times,
serif"><ST1:PLACE
w:st="on"><ST1:CITY w:st="on"></ST1:CITY><ST1:STATE
w:st="on"></ST1:STATE><ST1:POSTALCODE
w:st="on"></ST1:POSTALCODE></ST1:PLACE></FONT><B><BR></B></SPAN></P><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR></SPAN></DIV>On 5/1/2013 11:21 AM, David Katz
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:944F81E3-C545-48D4-95F0-39234AC26B79@aeesolar.com
type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Ray
An Apollo inverter should fit on the same E-panel. I have using one on my off grid house for may years. They also have great remote monitoring over the internet.
David Katz
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 30, 2013, at 7:26 PM, "Ray Walters" <A class=moz-txt-link-rfc2396E href="mailto:ray@solarray.com"><ray@solarray.com></A> wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">I couldn't agree more Bob-O
Pharmaceutical company? Ethics? Opps.
I thought Schneider buying them would help, but they have no idea what
they're even selling these days. Have you seen their website? I can't
even find a spec sheet for the TR in all that "Solutions for PV systems"
mumbo jumbo.
Amazing that the Trace equipment line that basically put PV on the map,
is the bottom of the heap now.
I like your 3C term. I'll put that in our dictionary near PITA ( pain
in the a__ ) factor.
R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760
On 4/30/2013 5:54 PM, Bob-O Schultze wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">The TR is a classic example of what I call 3C. Cheap Chinese Crap. If Xantrex had any ethics at all they would have killed that line and refunded everyone's dough years ago.
Bob-O
On Apr 30, 2013, at 3:44 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:
Ray,
I've got a customer that has the same problem with a dual TR inverter system. When we first complained, Xantrex promised they were working on a fix. That never materialized and now the TR is out of production. It's a lousy product and customer service has been the same. A few months ago, I was asked to participate in a survey regarding Xantrex products and service. My responses must have got someone's attention because I got a follow-up call about the survey. There never has been a follow-up to correct this customer's problem inverter.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
<A class=moz-txt-link-abbreviated href="http://www.bluemountainsolar.com">www.bluemountainsolar.com</A>
t: 541-568-4882
On 4/30/2013 3:19 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
</PRE>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite"><PRE wrap="">Hi Folks:
I just finished up another ugly rewire project for a customer that had another"installer" put in a Xantrex TR inverter.
We fixed numerous wiring issues, including neutral bonded to ground in 7 different places!
The issue we're having now though, is that the TR inverter output voltage fluctuates when running CF lighting, and the refrigerator.
You can literally see the lights cycling brighter and dimmer, and hear the compressor on the fridge running up and down in frequency. Xantrex/ Schneider Tech support said that:
A) The TR doesn't do well with CF lighting, and that we should switch to all incandescent........ hmmmm.
B) We should set the search watts to zero (which I already did)
C) We need to increase the loads on the TR, as it doesn't regulate output voltage and frequency very well at lower loads........ 2nd big hmmmmm.
I knew there was a reason I quit installing Xantrex inverters about 5 years ago, but I couldn't recall the details. Now its all coming back to my feeble, aging brain. So aside from switching out the inverter , (which I just installed on a beautiful Midnite E-Panel) does anybody have any cures for our ills? How would LED lighting behave? Should I throw a capacitor across the output? or perhaps I should just retire early and sail around the Caribbean? (I can afford a canoe/ no sail......)
As always, thanks in advance for this wonderful technical (and emotional) support group,
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