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--></style></head><body bgcolor="white" lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Ray,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Your points all seem good. And I echo the other comments that white non-UV zip ties should never be used. I bumped into a tracker installation a few weeks ago out in the Fresno area with very poor wire management! See attached pic - I have no idea who installed the system or when. It looks like the wire management was never any good in the first place although if you zoom in you'll see traces of a few white zip ties here and there that seem to be falling apart. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We've managed to get our rooftop installations to be completely managed with stainless s-clips and then maybe just a couple black plastic zip ties in critical locations. So far so good. A lot of it just goes back to good craftsmanship and running the PV wire in strategic locations so it's mostly supported by channel or rail. A tracking system is a completely different story where the wires will be moving as the system tracks. Plastic zip ties clearly don't seem like a good idea for tracking applications.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">August</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray Walters<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:30 AM<br><b>To:</b> Solar Energy Solutions; RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal">
Black UV resistant ties only last a few years at altitude in New Mexico and Colorado. UV is brutal, and causes PVC conduit to discolor within 2 years. The zips will actually hold for 10+ years, but aren't really strong. I've come back on my own work, and just yanked on them, and popped them right off.<br>
They just get very brittle. If on a tracker that is constantly pulling on them, they'll be trash on the ground after less than 5 years. I use wire loom clamps with rubber insulators in those cases, and then the zip ties just hold the bundle of wires together, but aren't actually securing the wire to the structure.<br>
I looked into this recently for a large PV installation company and I found that Nylon 6.6 is probably the best, but the specified design life of the zip when exposed to UV was 6 to 10 years. We found a nylon zip rated to over 15 years, but it was special order and cost something like $2/ ea (cough, cough)<br>
I like the idea of SS ties, but they are not the same as the SS clips as mentioned. The clips have curved edges that won't cut into the cables. USE wire actually is pretty easy to cut into, and I've seen a few shorts due to metal cutting into it. ( module edges, romex type connectors, etc) I would wrap the wire with a thick electrical tape before zip tieing with SS ties. There is a heavy mil pipe wrap tape (UV and underground rated) that plumbers use on gas lines. <br>
<br></p><pre>R.Ray Walters</pre><pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc</pre><pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </pre><pre>Licensed Master Electrician</pre><pre>Solar Design Engineer</pre><pre>303 505-8760</pre><p class="MsoNormal">On 4/25/2013 9:48 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote:</p>
</div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We have used black cable ties since 1987 to strap sensor wire to PVC pipe for our solar pool heating systems. I was just at a system we installed in 1989 mounted on an East facing roof yesterday. The exposed 20g sensor wire still had intact and plyable sheilding and the black cable ties still firmly attached and not brittle. We have other similiar scenes with systems mounted on South facing roof were the black cable ties are still in tact under full solar exposure... for Portland Oregon. Yanking on some of these cable ties sometimes break the ancient tie. But, more often than not, as yesterday, we have to break out our wire cutters to accomplish this task.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thus, I gotta think that black cable ties under a PV array which are not exposed to any of the heat or sun we usually subject them to... are going to last an even longer time. </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Andrew Koyaanisqatsi</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">President</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Since 1987,</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Moving Portland and Beyond </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">503-238-4502</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<b><span style="font-family:"System","sans-serif""><a href="http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/" target="_blank">http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/</a> </span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">"Better one's House too little one day</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">than too big all the Year after."</span></b><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> Chris Mason <a href="mailto:cometenergysystems@gmail.com"><cometenergysystems@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a> <br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 8:12 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br><br></p><div id="yiv2031156226"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Make sure you use black cable ties, the white ones fail in UV from sunlight.</p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"> </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:06 AM, August Goers <<a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com" target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br></p><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">I too share the concern about standard plastic zip ties. However, I started in the industry in 1997 and have yet to see zip ties that are falling apart. Does anyone on the list have firsthand experience with failed plastic zip ties?</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Best,</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">August</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">August Goers</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Luminalt Energy Corporation</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">1320 Potrero Avenue</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">San Francisco, CA 94110</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">m: <span class="MsoHyperlink">415.559.1525</span></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">o: <span class="MsoHyperlink">415.641.4000</span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com" target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a></span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentColor currentColor">
<div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Solarguy</span></p>
</div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 7:08 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties</p></div>
</div></div></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d">We have used 8” flat SS ties for years and I have no concern about the wear on the conductor insulation. They are long enough to circle a standard Unirac rail and several wires leaving 1” or so tag end. Needle nose pliers work to twist the end and snug down the tie as tight as you’re comfortable with. The metal tie, once bent around the corners cannot stretch any tighter, unlike nylon, regardless of how tightly you twist the pliers. As for the edges, quality ties are not sharp. Or cheap.</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Jim Duncan</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">North Texas Renewable Energy Inc</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.ntrei.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ntrei.com/</a> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">NABCEP PV 031310-57</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">TECL-27398</span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a href="mailto:ntrei@1scom.net" target="_blank">ntrei@1scom.net</a> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><span class="MsoHyperlink">817.917.0527</span></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:26.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:14.0pt">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:14.0pt"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 8:08 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable Ties</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
</p></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">There was a recent thread about wire management. Heyco SunBundler ties have a vinyl coating. I recommended the clips from PV Racking that are stainless steel coated in rubber. I've had the same concern, and both of these seem like good solutions to me.</p>
</div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> </p></div><div><div><div style="margin-bottom:6.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Jason Szumlanski</span></b><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray"> </span></i></p>
</div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Fafco Solar</span></i><span style="font-size:8.0pt;color:gray"> </span></p></div></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> </p></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Benn Kilburn - DayStar Renewable Energy <<a href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca" target="_blank">benn@daystarsolar.ca</a>> wrote:</p>
</div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Wrenches,</span></p></div></div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">I searched the archives, but came up with nothing on this….</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">I have found a good supplier for reasonably priced stainless steel cable ties and have been using them in place of black nylon cable ties for supporting cables, PV wires and micro-inverter wires to the mounting rails and such. I feel better knowing the wires under the array are supported this way rather than with plastic/nylon cable ties, for which I tried but cannot get a manufacturer to guarantee will last 20+yrs.</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">A colleague is questioning this method (SS ties) with the concern that over time the (albeit small) movement in the wires and/or expansion/contraction of the rails could result in the stainless steel cable ties cutting thru the wire's insulation and then…..</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">I have heard this concern before from others as well.</span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">The way I see it is that the very popular stainless steel "S" cable clips that hold wires to module frames have comparable equal sharp edges as well and would pose the same risk, but there doesn't seem to be any concern there.</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">I am wondering who else is using SS ties in place of nylon ones, and if you are taking additional steps to protect the wire's insulation from the SS ties?</span></p>
</div></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Common sense abides, meaning don't wrap a wire around the SS ties so that the wire has tension on the sharp edge of the tie. Flat edge contact with the wire only, the same way that you wouldn't run a wire across/around a sharp cut edge of a rail or anything else.</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">Thanks,</span></p>
</div></div><div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span style="font-size:10.5pt">benn</span></p></div></div></div><div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br></p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br><br clear="all"></p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"> </p></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">-- <br>Chris Mason </p><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
President, Comet Systems Ltd</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><a href="http://www.cometenergysystems.com/" target="_blank">http://www.cometenergysystems.com/</a></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
Cell: 264.235.5670</p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Skype: netconcepts</p></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"><br>_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Change email address & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><br></p></div></div></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><br><br><br></p><pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>List sponsored by Home Power magazine</pre><pre> </pre><pre>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>Change email address & settings:</pre>
<pre><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<pre> </pre><pre>List rules & etiquette:</pre><pre><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>Check out participant bios:</pre><pre><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
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