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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Terrible. I've got a file of pics like
that, and the wires can grab hold of something while the tracker
rotates, and rip a j box right off the back of the module. <br>
Around here, the white zip ties don't even last long enough just
sitting in the truck to install without breaking. <br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760</pre>
On 4/25/2013 11:19 AM, August Goers wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ac79c26849102bd45ad10f00f0587d83@mail.gmail.com"
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Ray,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Your
points all seem good. And I echo the other comments that
white non-UV zip ties should never be used. I bumped into a
tracker installation a few weeks ago out in the Fresno area
with very poor wire management! See attached pic - I have no
idea who installed the system or when. It looks like the
wire management was never any good in the first place
although if you zoom in you'll see traces of a few white zip
ties here and there that seem to be falling apart. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We've
managed to get our rooftop installations to be completely
managed with stainless s-clips and then maybe just a couple
black plastic zip ties in critical locations. So far so
good. A lot of it just goes back to good craftsmanship and
running the PV wire in strategic locations so it's mostly
supported by channel or rail. A tracking system is a
completely different story where the wires will be moving as
the system tracks. Plastic zip ties clearly don't seem like
a good idea for tracking applications.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">August</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal">
<b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ray Walters<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 9:30 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Solar Energy Solutions; RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel Cable
Ties</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">
Black UV resistant ties only last a few years at altitude in
New Mexico and Colorado. UV is brutal, and causes PVC
conduit to discolor within 2 years. The zips will actually
hold for 10+ years, but aren't really strong. I've come
back on my own work, and just yanked on them, and popped
them right off.<br>
They just get very brittle. If on a tracker that is
constantly pulling on them, they'll be trash on the ground
after less than 5 years. I use wire loom clamps with rubber
insulators in those cases, and then the zip ties just hold
the bundle of wires together, but aren't actually securing
the wire to the structure.<br>
I looked into this recently for a large PV installation
company and I found that Nylon 6.6 is probably the best, but
the specified design life of the zip when exposed to UV was
6 to 10 years. We found a nylon zip rated to over 15 years,
but it was special order and cost something like $2/ ea
(cough, cough)<br>
I like the idea of SS ties, but they are not the same as the
SS clips as mentioned. The clips have curved edges that
won't cut into the cables. USE wire actually is pretty easy
to cut into, and I've seen a few shorts due to metal cutting
into it. ( module edges, romex type connectors, etc) I
would wrap the wire with a thick electrical tape before zip
tieing with SS ties. There is a heavy mil pipe wrap tape (UV
and underground rated) that plumbers use on gas lines. <br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>R.Ray Walters</pre>
<pre>CTO, Solarray, Inc</pre>
<pre>Nabcep Certified PV Installer, </pre>
<pre>Licensed Master Electrician</pre>
<pre>Solar Design Engineer</pre>
<pre>303 505-8760</pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/25/2013 9:48 AM, Solar Energy
Solutions wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">We
have used black cable ties since 1987 to strap sensor
wire to PVC pipe for our solar pool heating systems.
I was just at a system we installed in 1989 mounted on
an East facing roof yesterday. The exposed 20g sensor
wire still had intact and plyable sheilding and the
black cable ties still firmly attached and not
brittle. We have other similiar scenes with systems
mounted on South facing roof were the black cable ties
are still in tact under full solar exposure... for
Portland Oregon. Yanking on some of these cable ties
sometimes break the ancient tie. But, more often than
not, as yesterday, we have to break out our wire
cutters to accomplish this task.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Thus,
I gotta think that black cable ties under a PV array
which are not exposed to any of the heat or sun we
usually subject them to... are going to last an even
longer time. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Andrew
Koyaanisqatsi</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">President</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Solar
Energy Solutions, Inc.</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Since
1987,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Moving
Portland and Beyond </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">to
an Environmentally Sustainable Future.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">503-238-4502</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">
<b><span
style="font-family:"System","sans-serif""><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/</a>
</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">"Better
one's House too little one day</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-family:"Comic Sans MS"">than
too big all the Year after."</span></b><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
Chris Mason <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:cometenergysystems@gmail.com"><cometenergysystems@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a>
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25, 2013 8:12 AM<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stainless Steel
Cable Ties</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><br>
<br>
</p>
<div id="yiv2031156226">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">Make
sure you use black cable ties, the white ones
fail in UV from sunlight.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">On
Thu, Apr 25, 2013 at 11:06 AM, August Goers
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:august@luminalt.com"
target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">I
too share the concern about standard
plastic zip ties. However, I started
in the industry in 1997 and have yet
to see zip ties that are falling
apart. Does anyone on the list have
firsthand experience with failed
plastic zip ties?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Best,</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">August</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">August
Goers</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Luminalt
Energy Corporation</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">1320
Potrero Avenue</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">San
Francisco, CA 94110</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">m:
<span class="MsoHyperlink">415.559.1525</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">o:
<span class="MsoHyperlink">415.641.4000</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:august@luminalt.com"
target="_blank">august@luminalt.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in;border-color:currentColor
currentColor">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Solarguy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25,
2013 7:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches]
Stainless Steel Cable Ties</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d">We
have used 8” flat SS ties for
years and I have no concern about
the wear on the conductor
insulation. They are long enough
to circle a standard Unirac rail
and several wires leaving 1” or so
tag end. Needle nose pliers work
to twist the end and snug down the
tie as tight as you’re comfortable
with. The metal tie, once bent
around the corners cannot stretch
any tighter, unlike nylon,
regardless of how tightly you
twist the pliers. As for the
edges, quality ties are not sharp.
Or cheap.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">Jim
Duncan</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">North
Texas Renewable Energy Inc</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ntrei.com/"
target="_blank">http://www.ntrei.com/</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">NABCEP
PV 031310-57</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d">TECL-27398</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ntrei@1scom.net"
target="_blank">ntrei@1scom.net</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">
<span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"><span
class="MsoHyperlink">817.917.0527</span></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:26.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:14.0pt"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason
Szumlanski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, April 25,
2013 8:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches]
Stainless Steel Cable Ties</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">There
was a recent thread about wire
management. Heyco SunBundler
ties have a vinyl coating. I
recommended the clips from PV
Racking that are stainless steel
coated in rubber. I've had the
same concern, and both of these
seem like good solutions to me.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:6.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Jason Szumlanski</span></b><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray"> </span></i></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><i><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;color:gray">Fafco Solar</span></i><span
style="font-size:8.0pt;color:gray"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">On Thu,
Apr 25, 2013 at 1:20 AM, Benn
Kilburn - DayStar Renewable
Energy <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca"
target="_blank">benn@daystarsolar.ca</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">Wrenches,</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">I
searched the archives, but
came up with nothing on
this….</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">I
have found a good supplier
for reasonably priced
stainless steel cable ties
and have been using them
in place of black nylon
cable ties for supporting
cables, PV wires and
micro-inverter wires to
the mounting rails and
such. I feel better
knowing the wires under
the array are supported
this way rather than with
plastic/nylon cable ties,
for which I tried but
cannot get a manufacturer
to guarantee will last
20+yrs.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">A
colleague is questioning
this method (SS ties) with
the concern that over time
the (albeit small)
movement in the wires
and/or
expansion/contraction of
the rails could result in
the stainless steel cable
ties cutting thru the
wire's insulation and
then…..</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">I
have heard this concern
before from others as
well.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white">
<span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">The
way I see it is that the
very popular stainless
steel "S" cable clips that
hold wires to module
frames have comparable
equal sharp edges as well
and would pose the same
risk, but there doesn't
seem to be any concern
there.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">I
am wondering who else is
using SS ties in place
of nylon ones, and if
you are taking
additional steps to
protect the wire's
insulation from the SS
ties?</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">Common
sense abides, meaning
don't wrap a wire around
the SS ties so that the
wire has tension on the
sharp edge of the tie.
Flat edge contact with
the wire only, the same
way that you wouldn't run
a wire across/around a
sharp cut edge of a rail
or anything else.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt"> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">Thanks,</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="background:white"><span
style="font-size:10.5pt">benn</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white">-- <br>
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President, Comet Systems Ltd</p>
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