<font face="arial" size="3"><p style="margin:0;padding:0;">when i hear of current flows like this i cant help but wonder is there a risk of batteries exploding during these kinds of tests?</p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">todd</p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 7:00am, "William Dorsett" <wmdorsett@sbcglobal.net> said:<br /><br /></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">This topic comes up often enough that we ought to mention a yellowed article in Home Power, (1992 Issue 27, pg 26). Christopher Freitas wrote <em>Overcurrent Protection for Battery-Powered Systems </em>where he describes experiments he did back when he was with Ananda. He put a 2000 A Big Switch to initiate a short (4/0 cable) between the terminals on a set of four golf cart batteries (2 strings @ 12V). In series, he put in a 500A Shunt so he could measure current passing and various fuses and breakers. “For comparison, we decided to directly short the battery…the meter read 6960 amps peak current (three seconds) …during each test the 4/0 cable lifted off the ground 4 inches into the air by the forces generated by the extremely high current..” They videoed the 250 A ANN buss fuses arc and smoke; the 200A Heinemann Series AM breakers (paralleled ones that maybe Roy mentioned) went 3 seconds without breaking and the video showed a flash and blue smoke. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">175A ITE breaker with 42,000 AIC “simply tripped…but still allowed a peak current of 2960 amps</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">200A Class T Littlefuse “opened promptly with no external signs of stress…1920 amps peak current”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Christopher’s recommendations: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">“Every AE system must have overcurrent protection able to interrupt the maximum current available from the batteries. For most systems, the main protection should use current limiting high AIC fuses, such as a Class T or Class R. A disconnect switch which allows the fuse to be safely changed should be included. A lower cost alternative is to mount the fuse in a fuse holder without a disconnect. Although the fuse would always be electrically hot, it normally would not be changed during the life of the system. The fuse holder should be mounted outside the battery enclosure. Fuses should not be bolted directly onto the battery terminal, as they are not designed to handle the physical stresses that can occur without the protection of a fuse holder.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Fuses which have exposed elements, such as ANN fuses, should not be used because they are not current limiting and have only 2500 amps AIC. They also may be a significant hazard when installed near batteries. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">High AIC breakers, like the Heinemann Series CF (25,000 Amps AIC @ 65VDC) can provide overcurrent protection for individual items. They cannot be used to protect lower AIC breakers. This eliminates their use as a main disconnect in most systems. </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Low AIC breakers, like the Heinemann Series AM (5000A AIC @65 VDC) or the Square-D QO (5000A @ 125 VDC) can be used in load distribution centers and components, but must be protected by a current limiting fuse. Using low-AIC breakers alone will not provide sufficient protection with a battery system and may be a significant hazard during short circuit situations.”</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">It won’t pull up anymore on HP’s article search but probably Michael has a copy he could post for those interested.<em> </em></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Bill Dorsett</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Manhattan, KS</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>John Berdner<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Monday, April 08, 2013 7:25 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> Allan@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Allan:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">A pretty accurate retention of the Grass Valley / Nevada County through 2000.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">You only missed the Trace to Xantrex “acquisition” that was the start of the divorce </span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: #1f497d;">J</span><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Class T fuses provide better protection for battery based inverters – always been that way.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">The move to breakers was a cost reduction issues when Trace introduced the DC-250.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">I still contend that the way the DC-250 did it was a Code violation when used with PV in the box (current from all sources issue) but that is history.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">For high current applications the Boltswitch Pull outs (the ones we used in the Power Centers) came in 100A, 200A and 400 A sizes and 1, 2, and 3 pole versions. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">I think they are still made today.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Still the best way to do currents above 250 Amps.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">You can do a Eaton / GJ1P breaker up to 750 Amps but they are Spin Dee.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">As you noted you can use a single pull out to do up to 3 battery strings.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">You make a copper “comb” to parallel separate fused inputs to a single inverter. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">If you have more than one inverter you can have “back to back” fuse blocks with an H-H-H shaped bus bar set up.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">The biggest one I recall we did was a 12 400 A battery/PV inputs going to 8 SW inverters.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">You size the copper bus bars for 1000 A / square inch of cross section and you are good to go (this is from the UL 508 design guide).</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Best Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">John Berdner</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">General Manager, North America</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA </span><strong><em><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #c00000;">(*Please note of our new address.)</span></em></strong><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"><br />T: 510.498.3200, X 747</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">M: 530.277.4894 </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Allan Sindelar<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, April 05, 2013 9:00 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> RE-wrenches<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;margin-bottom: 12.0pt;">William,<br />For this I went deep into the catacombs of our hardware file cabinet, and quickly found a 1996 spec sheet from an Ananda Power Technologies SafeT-Block. For the young'uns, Ananda was a quality company, the originator of the listed Powercenter - the breaker and terminal block hardware that is part of every batttery-based system nowadays. Ananda became APT, then Pulse, then part of Trace (the PC250 and PC500) as part of a short-lived marriage followed by a messy divorce, the results of which led, as an act of revenge insurrection, to the introduction into the U.S. market of the Sunny Boy and AC-coupled systems, and the rest is even more wacky history. But I digress, after a run-on sentence bad enough that my high school English teacher is rolling over in her grave...<br /><br />I have attached a scan of page two of the spec sheet. In the upper left corner is a chart of current vs. time for a Class T fuse. Once I understood this chart I never again worried about nuisance tripping, as whether described as fast-acting or not, Class T fuses have an inherent surge capacity of about 2 1/2 times their rating, and thus can handle surges.<br /><br />If you put them on individual battery strings, the point is to prevent overcurrent on one string, which is only likely to occur when either 1) a terminal is corroded sufficiently that one string fails to carry its share of the load or charge (we have seen this) or 2) one string fails when the batteries reach end-of-life. When the Class T fuses blows in that situation it has done its job.<br />Allan</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><strong>Allan Sindelar</strong><br /><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;"><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><span style="color: #000099;">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br /><span style="font-size: 10.0pt;">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br />NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br />New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br />Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br /><strong>Positive Energy, Inc.</strong><br />3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br />Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br /><strong>505 424-1112</strong><br /><a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;">On 4/5/2013 8:29 PM, William Miller wrote:</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;margin-bottom: 12.0pt;">Friends:<br /><br />Good topic. Some questions:<br /><br />1. Most manufacturer's present an installation guide that shows one OCPD in the battery circuit and that is in the BOS cabinet. This means the battery leads are unprotected. Do we need an OPCD at the battery terminals?<br /><br />2. Class T fuses are generally recommended for this application. The data shows them as "fast acting." Is this a problem? Will they act too fast and open during normal surge loads?<br /><br />Thanks in advance!<br /><br />William Miller<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;">Troy,<br /> <br />Overcurrent device size is matched to the conductor size. The inverse time constant nature of an overcurrent device can typically handle the surge currents as long as conductor sizing has truly been done correctly for the conductor. Circuit breakers are preferred to fuses because they can be reset. <br /> <br />There has been volumes written on this issue. The constant current at lowest battery voltage should be used, plus the ac ripple content on the battery circuit. This is usually a much larger conductor than your average designer will plan for. The best thing is to look at Midnight, Outback, and Schneider and see what size overcurrent devices they require for their products. That will give you a good clue as to how to size the conductor and overcurrent device.<br /> <br />Bill.<br /> <br /><strong>From:</strong> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>Troy Harvey<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Friday, April 05, 2013 3:38 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> RE-wrenches<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery circuits<br /> <br />I've got a question about battery string fusing. Typically we size the wire from the batteries to the inverter based on continuous rating procedures (max power/efficiency)*125%. <br /> <br />However a 6kW inverter, can peak at 12kW for 5-10 seconds, doubling the source current. That is no big deal for the wire, because it is a short time frame... little heat will be generated. However, in fusing the sub-strings, you need to account for that peak surge current so you don't blow fuses all the time. But if you put a 500-1000 amp fuse on a 4/0 wire, above the max surge draw of the inverter, the wire will be under-protected for its ampacity rating. Any thoughts on the catch-22?</p>
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