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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Bill,<br>
<br>
I have all of those old HP issues in my library and once in a
while they are handy. Thanks for prompting me to take a look at
this one again. It should be an eye-opener for folks that the 5000
AIC rated breakers were pretty much a failure at opening a shorted
set of four golf-cart batteries at 12 volts. This article makes me
wonder how the small DIN rail mounted CBI breakers and small panel
mount breakers used by Midnite and Outback would do. I fear not
very well, and yet they are connected directly to the battery in
thousands of systems.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.bluemountainsolar.com">www.bluemountainsolar.com</a>
</pre>
On 4/9/2013 7:00 AM, William Dorsett wrote:<br>
</div>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">This
topic comes up often enough that we ought to mention a
yellowed article in Home Power, (1992 Issue 27, pg 26).
Christopher Freitas wrote <i>Overcurrent Protection for
Battery-Powered Systems </i>where he describes
experiments he did back when he was with Ananda. He put a
2000 A Big Switch to initiate a short (4/0 cable) between
the terminals on a set of four golf cart batteries (2
strings @ 12V). In series, he put in a 500A Shunt so he
could measure current passing and various fuses and
breakers. “For comparison, we decided to directly short the
battery…the meter read 6960 amps peak current (three
seconds) …during each test the 4/0 cable lifted off the
ground 4 inches into the air by the forces generated by the
extremely high current..” They videoed the 250 A ANN buss
fuses arc and smoke; the 200A Heinemann Series AM breakers
(paralleled ones that maybe Roy mentioned) went 3 seconds
without breaking and the video showed a flash and blue
smoke. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">175A
ITE breaker with 42,000 AIC “simply tripped…but still
allowed a peak current of 2960 amps<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">200A
Class T Littlefuse “opened promptly with no external signs
of stress…1920 amps peak current”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Christopher’s
recommendations: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">“Every
AE system must have overcurrent protection able to interrupt
the maximum current available from the batteries. For most
systems, the main protection should use current limiting
high AIC fuses, such as a Class T or Class R. A disconnect
switch which allows the fuse to be safely changed should be
included. A lower cost alternative is to mount the fuse in a
fuse holder without a disconnect. Although the fuse would
always be electrically hot, it normally would not be
changed during the life of the system. The fuse holder
should be mounted outside the battery enclosure. Fuses
should not be bolted directly onto the battery terminal, as
they are not designed to handle the physical stresses that
can occur without the protection of a fuse holder.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Fuses
which have exposed elements, such as ANN fuses, should not
be used because they are not current limiting and have only
2500 amps AIC. They also may be a significant hazard when
installed near batteries. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">High
AIC breakers, like the Heinemann Series CF (25,000 Amps AIC
@ 65VDC) can provide overcurrent protection for individual
items. They cannot be used to protect lower AIC breakers.
This eliminates their use as a main disconnect in most
systems. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Low
AIC breakers, like the Heinemann Series AM (5000A AIC @65
VDC) or the Square-D QO (5000A @ 125 VDC) can be used in
load distribution centers and components, but must be
protected by a current limiting fuse. Using low-AIC breakers
alone will not provide sufficient protection with a battery
system and may be a significant hazard during short circuit
situations.”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
won’t pull up anymore on HP’s article search but probably
Michael has a copy he could post for those interested.<i> </i><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill
Dorsett<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Manhattan,
KS<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>John Berdner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 08, 2013 7:25 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>; RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery
circuits<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A
pretty accurate retention of the Grass Valley / Nevada
County through 2000.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
only missed the Trace to Xantrex “acquisition” that was
the start of the divorce </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D">J</span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Class
T fuses provide better protection for battery based
inverters – always been that way.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
move to breakers was a cost reduction issues when Trace
introduced the DC-250.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
still contend that the way the DC-250 did it was a Code
violation when used with PV in the box (current from all
sources issue) but that is history.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For
high current applications the Boltswitch Pull outs (the
ones we used in the Power Centers) came in 100A, 200A and
400 A sizes and 1, 2, and 3 pole versions. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
think they are still made today.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Still
the best way to do currents above 250 Amps.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
can do a Eaton / GJ1P breaker up to 750 Amps but they are
Spin Dee.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">As
you noted you can use a single pull out to do up to 3
battery strings.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
make a copper “comb” to parallel separate fused inputs to
a single inverter. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">If
you have more than one inverter you can have “back to
back” fuse blocks with an H-H-H shaped bus bar set up.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
biggest one I recall we did was a 12 400 A battery/PV
inputs going to 8 SW inverters.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
size the copper bus bars for 1000 A / square inch of cross
section and you are good to go (this is from the UL 508
design guide).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John
Berdner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">General
Manager, North America<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">SolarEdge
Technologies, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">3347
Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA </span><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C00000">(*Please
note of our new address.)</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
T: 510.498.3200, X 747<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M:
530.277.4894 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 05, 2013 9:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in
battery circuits<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">William,<br>
For this I went deep into the catacombs of our hardware
file cabinet, and quickly found a 1996 spec sheet from an
Ananda Power Technologies SafeT-Block. For the young'uns,
Ananda was a quality company, the originator of the listed
Powercenter - the breaker and terminal block hardware that
is part of every batttery-based system nowadays. Ananda
became APT, then Pulse, then part of Trace (the PC250 and
PC500) as part of a short-lived marriage followed by a
messy divorce, the results of which led, as an act of
revenge insurrection, to the introduction into the U.S.
market of the Sunny Boy and AC-coupled systems, and the
rest is even more wacky history. But I digress, after a
run-on sentence bad enough that my high school English
teacher is rolling over in her grave...<br>
<br>
I have attached a scan of page two of the spec sheet. In
the upper left corner is a chart of current vs. time for a
Class T fuse. Once I understood this chart I never again
worried about nuisance tripping, as whether described as
fast-acting or not, Class T fuses have an inherent surge
capacity of about 2 1/2 times their rating, and thus can
handle surges.<br>
<br>
If you put them on individual battery strings, the point
is to prevent overcurrent on one string, which is only
likely to occur when either 1) a terminal is corroded
sufficiently that one string fails to carry its share of
the load or charge (we have seen this) or 2) one string
fails when the batteries reach end-of-life. When the Class
T fuses blows in that situation it has done its job.<br>
Allan<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:722.25pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><br>
<img id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:part5.09040404.01000204@coveoregon.com"
border="0" height="912" width="843"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 4/5/2013 8:29 PM, William Miller
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Friends:<br>
<br>
Good topic. Some questions:<br>
<br>
1. Most manufacturer's present an installation guide that
shows one OCPD in the battery circuit and that is in the
BOS cabinet. This means the battery leads are
unprotected. Do we need an OPCD at the battery terminals?<br>
<br>
2. Class T fuses are generally recommended for this
application. The data shows them as "fast acting." Is
this a problem? Will they act too fast and open during
normal surge loads?<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance!<br>
<br>
William Miller<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Troy,<br>
<br>
Overcurrent device size is matched to the conductor size.
The inverse time constant nature of an overcurrent device
can typically handle the surge currents as long as
conductor sizing has truly been done correctly for the
conductor. Circuit breakers are preferred to fuses because
they can be reset. <br>
<br>
There has been volumes written on this issue. The constant
current at lowest battery voltage should be used, plus the
ac ripple content on the battery circuit. This is usually
a much larger conductor than your average designer will
plan for. The best thing is to look at Midnight, Outback,
and Schneider and see what size overcurrent devices they
require for their products. That will give you a good clue
as to how to size the conductor and overcurrent device.<br>
<br>
Bill.<br>
<br>
<b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Troy Harvey<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, April 05, 2013 3:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Fuse sizing in battery
circuits<br>
<br>
I've got a question about battery string fusing. Typically
we size the wire from the batteries to the inverter based
on continuous rating procedures (max
power/efficiency)*125%. <br>
<br>
However a 6kW inverter, can peak at 12kW for 5-10 seconds,
doubling the source current. That is no big deal for the
wire, because it is a short time frame... little heat will
be generated. However, in fusing the sub-strings, you need
to account for that peak surge current so you don't blow
fuses all the time. But if you put a 500-1000 amp fuse on
a 4/0 wire, above the max surge draw of the inverter, the
wire will be under-protected for its ampacity rating. Any
thoughts on the catch-22?<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
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