<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><br>
Hi Chris,<br>
<br>
Thanks for a glimpse of how our German brethren handle PV design
& installation. After all, who has more experience with
design, execution, and funding than the Germans? There remains an
arrogance that the US has a lock on how best to do any number of
things. Hopefully, this antiquated attitude will change, soon;
hopefully, before we are all reduced to asking the equivalent of,
"Would you like to Supersize that meal?" <br>
<br>
Best wishes on your install. Please keep us informed of how others
around the world better handle these items.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
</pre>
On 28-Mar-13 1:03 PM, Chris Mason wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAG6C1qnyYz4hgwBFSoKEA5YTVqzk0b7WQcp1+snDSKW1fn9WHQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>I am working on a large installation in a country that uses
230/400V 60Hz for the grid, so we had to look to Europe for the
inverters and work 1000V.</div>
<div>I spent some time on the phone with SMA Germany to discuss
the reqiurements in Germany and to understand the design
methodology the inverters were designed for.</div>
<div>First of all, the inverters are gorgeous. The first one we
installed is a 3Ph 17KW with 6 sets string inputs, 2 x MPPT.
They connect the strings directly to the inverters, no
disconnects. The inverters have a Electronic Solar Switch on the
bottom, pull it down and the strings are disconnected.</div>
<div>We are using 26 module strings or that install, which
massively reduces cabling and components.</div>
<div>I showed the engineer a photo of our larger installs, he
laughed at the use of "pipes" for the cables.</div>
<div>We install massive AC disconnects, they use a little isolator
about the size of a Coke can.</div>
<div>Everything is a multi-core cable.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I also read a guide to the British Standards on PV
installation, and their approach to grounding is absolutely
different. </div>
<div>Since PV conductors are all isolated now, they don't even
want you to ground the array structures, in fact they describe
grounding as a shock hazard. Very different mentality.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I might think that the US way is likely safer if we were
comparing with China or the third world, but this is Germany. I
think they know electricity.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Chris</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:16 PM, John
Berdner <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:John.Berdner@solaredge.com" target="_blank">John.Berdner@solaredge.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Exposed
single conductor sunlight resistant cable in cable
trays are widely used in PV systems outside the US.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There
is a very large installed base of systems with good
long term performance data using this type of
construction.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">We
should not discount the advantages of wire cable
trays just because we are unfamiliar with it.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Look
at data cabling – Characterized by many, relatively
small, cables over long distances with periodic
drops.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Sounds
a lot like PV source circuits (other than voltage
and current in the wires of course).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">There
are lots of videos out there showing how to pull
10’s of pairs of wires simultaneously in cable
trays.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">IMHO,
we need to look at ideas like this to reduce
installation cost and time.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Installation
costs are becoming the tall pole in the tent and new
thinking is needed.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
systems are falling to sub $3.00 /Watt all-in,
running wire in conduit will simply not be cost
effective.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Running
wire in conduit is one of the reasons PV
installation costs in the US are double (or more) of
those in Europe.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">As
one of my former German colleagues noted:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">“It
is only in the US where you need first to be a
plumber before you can be an electrician”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best
Regards,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John
Berdner</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">General
Manager, North America</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">SolarEdge
Technologies, Inc.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">3347
Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA </span><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#c00000">(*Please
note of our new address.)</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
T: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:510.498.3200%2C%20X%20747"
value="+15104983200" target="_blank">510.498.3200,
X 747</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:530.277.4894"
value="+15302774894" target="_blank">530.277.4894</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 27, 2013 8:51 AM</span></p>
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Andrew,<br>
We have used #10 USE-2 for about 16 years, and
our high-elevation New Mexico sun is quite
intense. I have yet to see any degradation
exceeding fading discoloration on any conductors
from that far back, even when directly exposed
to sunlight. No cracking, peeling, delaminating,
or hardening.<br>
Allan</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target="_blank"><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP
Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales
Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:505%20424-1112"
value="+15054241112" target="_blank">505
424-1112</a></b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-right:722.25pt"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 3/27/2013 8:41 AM, Andrew
Truitt wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill - What is your take in
conductor insulation degradation over time
when exposed to UV? Regardless of the
"sunlight resistant" labeling, USE-2 (and I
assume PV wire though I haven't seen it yet)
does show wear after years of exposure to
direct sunlight. Maybe best practice would be
to use cable trays where conductors are shaded
and [properly installed] conduit when exposed
to direct UV?</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">- Andrew Truitt</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<br>
On Mar 26, 2013, at 11:55 PM, "Bill Brooks"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:billbrooks7@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">billbrooks7@yahoo.com</a>>
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">William,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
have all the respect in the world for you,
but I’m not referring to “basket tray”,
which is only appropriate for small
conductors. I’m talking about legitimate
cable tray that can be up to 12” wide and
that has a top and rungs every 12”. The
main facilities that use it in the United
States are large industrial facilities.
Most electricians don’t get to work with
it. It is clearly superior to EMT and is
at least as good as IMC without all the
hassle of threaded fittings and setting up
expansion joints and worrying about 20
years of conductors thermal cycling. Even
the best electricians have problems with
this stuff.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
am talking about projects with 800 foot
long feeder runs. We can bring them in the
building and build a rack for the conduit
or run covered tray outside. As the 2014
NEC will require, you will have to use
contactor combiners or some other means to
shut down the conductors inside a
building. It’s all doable. My
recommendation after seeing the aftermath
of rooftop conduit by good electricians is
to put cable tray on roofs and use conduit
if you bring the feeders indoors. It will
become common practice soon. Hopefully
sooner than later.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Bill.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>William Miller<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 26, 2013
9:49 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches]
Cable tray</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bill:<br>
<br>
I have to disagree with you on this one. We
can not abandoned a tried and true practice
just because some practitioners don't do it
right. I don't know how one can justify
saying that encapsulating high voltage
conductors in a conduit is less safe than
exposed in a flimsy basket. Consider snow
and ice and falling objects.<br>
<br>
Too many installers entered the PV field
without first acquiring the necessary skills
as journeymen or women electricians. I
don't see the benefit of rewriting the code
to accommodate a lack of skills in the
industry.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
William Miller<br>
<br>
PS: The temperature adders always encourage
us to enter the building envelope at the
first appropriate location to avoid adding
them. Thoughtful installers will do the
same.<br>
<br>
Wm<br>
<br>
<br>
At 10:15 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Content-Type:
multipart/alternative;<br>
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E3_01CE29A6.37CC5110"<br>
Content-Language: en-us<br>
<br>
William,<br>
<br>
I would strongly disagree that conduit is
tried and true on rooftops. I have rarely
seen good conduit runs on rooftops. Most
electricians have no clue how to work with
expansion joints. Conduit on rooftops is a
bad idea in general. Most conduit runs in
big buildings are all done indoors for good
reason. We are the crazy people doing things
on the roof. <br>
<br>
The sooner we get away from
conduitparticularly for long feeder
runsthe better.<br>
<br>
In Europe they don’t have problems with
their rooftop wiring systems because
everything is in tray.<br>
<br>
For those that don’t allow cable tray for
anything less than 1/0, just remember that
if it isn’t called cable tray, then 392
doesn’t apply. The NEC would allow us to use
treated lumber in place of cable tray. This
makes no sense.<br>
<br>
We did some research on the origin of the
1/0 requirement, and it is ancient and no
longer relevant. Just because it is in the
code, does not mean it is correct. That’s
why we try to fix it every three years.<br>
<br>
Bill.<br>
</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br>
<br>
List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change email address & settings:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"
target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out participant bios:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>List sponsored by Home Power magazine</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Change email address & settings:</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>List-Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>List rules & etiquette:</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>Check out participant bios:</pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<pre> </pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="FONT-FAMILY:Courier New;FONT-SIZE:9pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt"><font
face="Calibri"><span style="COLOR:navy;FONT-SIZE:10pt">CONFIDENTIALITY
NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended
only for the use of the individual or entity who is
the intended recipient and may contain information
that is privileged, confidential and exempt from
disclosure or any type of use under applicable law.
If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended
recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative
responsible for delivering the e-mail to the
intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use
of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please reply
immediately to the sender.</span></font> </p>
<font face="Calibri"><span
style="COLOR:navy;FONT-SIZE:10pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN:0cm 0cm 0pt"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:Webdings;COLOR:green;FONT-SIZE:13.5pt" lang="DE">P</span></b><span
style="COLOR:green;FONT-SIZE:10pt"> Please think
of the environment before printing this email</span><span
style="COLOR:#4f81bd"></span></p>
</span></font></div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br>
<br>
List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
Change email address & settings:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List-Archive: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
List rules & etiquette:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"
target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br>
<br>
Check out participant bios:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<br clear="all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
Chris Mason
<div>President, Comet Systems Ltd</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cometenergysystems.com" target="_blank">www.cometenergysystems.com</a></div>
<div>
Cell: 264.235.5670</div>
<div>Skype: netconcepts</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
Change email address & settings:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List-Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a>
List rules & etiquette:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a>
Check out participant bios:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a>
</pre>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<p class="" avgcert""="" color="#000000" align="left">No virus
found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6206 - Release Date:
03/26/13</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
<a></a><p class=""avgcert"" align="left" color="#000000">No virus found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a href='http://www.avg.com'>www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6206 - Release Date: 03/26/13</p></html>