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<font size="-1">Had a couple of minutes here, so with the load side
connection, the 200 amp breaker would operate to protect all
conductors. With a supply side connection, the battery charger
could be pulling 60 amps, the main panel 200, and the service
conductors sized for 240 amps would fail. 2/0 in f</font><small>ree
air is rated for 265A T310.15(B)(17), but would you say that
T310.(B)(16)</small> <small>applies for service conductors and
then 2/0 is 175?</small><br>
<br>
<small>I am really starting to hate solar. </small><br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/28/2013 10:21 AM, Dave Click
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:512F75DC.5070902@fsec.ucf.edu" type="cite">
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As a note, supply side connections have an extra complication with
battery backup systems. With a regular GT inverter you're just
pushing current into that interconnection point and you can work
out easily that you won't have any overcurrent issues unless you
made a big mistake and your inverter output exceeds the rating of
your service conductors. However, with a battery system you're
also potentially pulling current from that point. Before the
battery inverter is installed your main breaker protects your
service conductors, but if the inverter is pulling in 60A and the
main breaker is also operating near its capacity, you could have
>240A running over 200A service conductors with no breakers
tripping. You would overwhelm the capacity of the service
[230.23(A)] and no breakers would trip. You could fix this by
replacing your service conductors back to the transformer (I'm
just saying that it's an option) or downsizing the main breaker,
and at that point you're probably better off just making it a load
side connection. I'd go load side and argue with the AHJ to use
the 2011 update mentioned earlier.<br>
<br>
Dave<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2013/2/28 9:55, Garrison Riegel
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Allen,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">The benefit I
see would be to allow for a code compliant load side
connection on a 200A panel with a 200A MB, where the AHJ
is on the 2008 NEC or older and will not listen to your
good logic. I don’t think this would always be the best
option, but if backup loads and inverter output were less
than 32A then a 40A OCPD in the main panel should be
fine? Since it sounds like the 60A breaker in the main
panel is not a safety issue, but a design consideration, I
suppose I would just prefer flexibility when possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">That said,
this AHJ is on the 2008, and the loads will be less than
30A, but based on this conversation I plan to go with a
60A and try to convince the AHJ that it will be code
compliant in their future!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Garrison<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 28, 2013 8:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Conductor Sizing for
Supply Side Connection<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Garrison,<br>
I don't know why it's not listed as 60A max, but my own
internal logic would ask why it should be. The only
benefit I could see for using smaller than a 60A breaker
would be to allow use of #8 conductors (allowed with a 40A
or 50A breaker) instead of the #6 necessary with a 60A
breaker. And of course, you could use a 40A breaker with
#6 conductors, so theoretically it would be fine. I just
fail to see any benefit to doing so.<br>
Allan<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:722.25pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/28/2013 6:27 AM, Garrison Riegel
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks
Allen for clarifying why a 60A is required. I was
wondering. The spec does list a surge current of 9000W
so I thought that may be the rationale, but even that
would only require a 50A, and since this surge occurs
during ‘stand-alone mode’ it didn’t seem to apply to the
OCPD at the main panel. Your explanation makes more
sense, but I wonder why then they don’t list the AC
input breaker size as 60A <i>max</i>. If you have few
backup loads, and are not on the 2011 NEC, a 40A could
theoretically be fine?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Thanks all
for your thoughts, much appreciated.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D">Garrison</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:08 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Conductor Sizing
for Supply Side Connection</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">August,<br>
The 60A breaker is intended to allow grid power to pass
through to the loads in excess of the inverter's
stand-alone output. The point of 705.12 (moved in the
2011 NEC from 690.64 (B)(2)) is to differentiate between
load pass-through current and sell current. The amount
of current fed into the grid is (4500/230 =) 19.56A,
while the amount that can be taken from the grid and
passed through to the load is much greater. If you were
limited to a 40A breaker in order to maintain 120% of a
200A main bus, you'd be prone to nuisance trips under
large cumulative loads.<br>
<br>
Allan<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><span
style="color:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br>
<span style="font-size:10.0pt">NABCEP Certified
Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:722.25pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
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<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
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