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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 1/29/2013 7:20 AM, David Brearley
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:9F529755-BA88-4D02-835B-58A7C2C9CE10@solarprofessional.com"
      type="cite">
      <div>I assume the device just operates the module away its MPP.
        That would reduce its power output. <br>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    That's exactly how it works.   Picture this...   When you disconnect
    the PV completely,<br>
    it is at its open circuit Voc voltage and there is no current or
    power coming from<br>
    the module.  So current limiting happens at a voltage somewhere
    between<br>
    Mpp V and Voc PV voltages.<br>
    <br>
    boB<br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
      cite="mid:9F529755-BA88-4D02-835B-58A7C2C9CE10@solarprofessional.com"
      type="cite">
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div>On Jan 29, 2013, at 8:48 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight
          Solar Power Systems wrote:</div>
        <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
            -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Nick,
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>You said "the microinverter only draws enough
              current..." Could you explain how this works? I primarily
              work with battery based systems and the charge controllers
              that perform current limiting do so by shunting the excess
              current as heat. How are you leaving current "in the
              module"?<br>
              <div>
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                                        style="border-collapse:
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                                          <div><br
                                              class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                                            Thank you,</div>
                                          <div><br
                                              class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                                            Larry Crutcher</div>
                                          <div>Starlight Solar Power
                                            Systems</div>
                                        </div>
                                      </span></span>
                                    <div><br>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </span></div>
                            </span></div>
                        </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                      </div>
                    </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                  </span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                </span>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div>
                <div>On Jan 28, 2013, at 4:35 PM, Nick Soleil wrote:</div>
                <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
                <div dir="ltr">Hi John,<br>
                  <br>
                  <div>
                    <div>It's important to clarify that the "clipped"
                      power does not turn into heat within the
                      microinverter. The microinverter only draws enough
                      current to achieve it's max output rating, and the
                      remaining current is "left in the module", so to
                      speak. So, the heat generated at peak times is the
                      same, whether using a 260W module or a 280W
                      module. </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Many string inverters actually work similarly.
                      What's different for them, however, is their
                      overall thermal situation. The primary thermal
                      driver for a string inverter is the amount of heat
                      generated by their electronics, and the ability of
                      their "fans & fins" to expel that heat.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>For example, a 5kW string inverter generates
                      ~200W of heat at peak, and it has fans and fins
                      sized accordingly.  But, the effectiveness of the
                      fans and fins depends on the ambient temperature
                      (and on elevation/air mass), and if your inverter
                      was operating at max power during hot weather
                      (which would require significant oversizing due to
                      the modules' temperature derates), it could exceed
                      the capability of the fans and fins. This would
                      then require the inverter to ramp-down output.
                       (Actually, some string inverters can respond
                      improperly--depending on whether their fan is
                      continuous, load-controlled or
                      thermally-controlled--and actually fry the
                      electronics.)</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>But, the thermal environment of a microinverter
                      is very different. </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>The main thermal driver in our situation is
                      actually the external environment, not the
                      electronics. Regardless of sizing ratio, an M215
                      generates less than 10 watts of heat at peak,
                      whereas the heat radiated from the module at peak
                      times will be substantially greater than that.
                      Consequently, we've already over-engineered the
                      microinverter for extreme heat management, and the
                      thermal effects of sizing ratio are simply a drop
                      in the bucket compared to the other factors.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>For that reason, we don't put limits in our
                      warranty with regard to sizing ratio (which
                      contrasts with at least some string inverter
                      warranties), and we would not expect to see any
                      microinverter ramp-down behaviors driven by sizing
                      ratio.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
                  <br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 11:06
                    AM, John Berdner <span dir="ltr"><<a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:John.Berdner@solaredge.com"
                        target="_blank">John.Berdner@solaredge.com</a>></span>
                    wrote:<br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                      .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Jason:</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Be
                                careful of drawing false comparisons. 
                                There is no free lunch.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">
                              <span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Beyond
                                the energy yield issues there are some
                                reliability issues.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">You
                                should also consider that running an
                                inverter flat out all the time will
                                shorten it’s life (due to the Arrhenius
                                effect).   <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation"
                                  target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation</a></span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Think
                                of the inverter temperature in the same
                                way you would the power output curve
                                (the two are closely related).  Moving
                                the whole power curve up “more on the
                                shoulders” also moves the whole
                                temperature curve up as well.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">The
                                average lifetime (all this stuff is only
                                probabilities) was projected with
                                certain assumptions about how many hours
                                at what temperature.  As module sizes
                                increase a given inverter will spend
                                more time at a higher power level, i.e.
                                runs hotter longer, which non-linearly
                                reduces the life of the product.</span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Just
                                my $0.02… With the high labor cost of
                                replacement it might be better to
                                undersize the module relative to the
                                power electronics or vice versa.   This
                                may or may not increase the installed
                                system cost depending on the products
                                you choose. Running everything flat out
                                all the time is probably not the
                                greatest idea.  </span></p>
                            <div class="im">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Best
                                  Regards,</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">John
                                  Berdner</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">General
                                  Manager, North America</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><img
                                  moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  alt="SmallBannerPictEngnew"
                                  width="468" height="113" border="0"></span></p>
                            <div class="im">
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">SolarEdge
                                  Technologies, Inc.</span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">3347
                                  Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538
                                  USA  </span><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#c00000">(*Please
                                      note of our new address.)</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><br>
                                  T: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="tel:510.498.3200%2C%20X%20747"
                                    value="+15104983200" target="_blank">510.498.3200,
                                    X 747</a></span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">M:
                                  <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                    href="tel:530.277.4894"
                                    value="+15302774894" target="_blank">530.277.4894</a>
                                </span></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
                                <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
                                  target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
                                [mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                  href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
                                  target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
                                <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br>
                                <b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 28, 2013
                                5:30 AM</span></p>
                            <div class="im"><br>
                              <b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
                              <b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] high
                              insolation value and inverter undersizing</div>
                            <div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
                            </div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal">
                               </p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I found the
                                latest module "rightsizing" paper by
                                Enphase pretty interesting. It does
                                stand to reason that there are a lot of
                                hours in the day where the inverter is
                                producing less than rated power, so
                                increasing the module size makes sense.
                                Obviously there is an optimum point in
                                every system where clipping exceeds
                                gains, but that's virtually impossible
                                to nail down due to so many factors
                                being involved. I think the point would
                                be that PV mods are coming down in price
                                so much that "rightsizing" is basically
                                equivalent to "upsizing," within reason,
                                of course. Spending an extra 25% on PV
                                might increase the installed system cost
                                by 5-10%.</p>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <div style="margin-bottom:6.0pt">
                                    <div style="margin-top: 0in;
                                      margin-right: 0in; margin-left:
                                      0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; "><strong><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">Jason
                                          Szumlanski</span></strong><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></div>
                                    <p
                                      style="margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:0in"><em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif";color:gray">Fafco
                                          Solar</span></em><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Verdana","sans-serif""></span></p>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
                                <div>
                                  <div class="im">
                                    <p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Jan 27,
                                      2013 at 6:00 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf
                                      <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:marco@pvthawaii.com"
                                        target="_blank">marco@pvthawaii.com</a>>
                                      wrote:</p>
                                  </div>
                                  <div>
                                    <div>
                                      <div class="im">
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">I have had
                                          a concern for a long time that
                                          as PV modules have gone up in
                                          output that there is
                                          inevitably going to be more
                                          and more clipping taking place
                                          as they’re paired with
                                          comparatively lower output
                                          inverters.  In effect,
                                          matching, say. a 260-watt
                                          module with a micro inverter
                                          with a max output of 225 watts
                                          reduces that 260-watt mod to
                                          225 watts.  It’s not a matter
                                          of if clipping will take
                                          place, but how much and how
                                          much actual harvestable energy
                                          will be lost.</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Out here in
                                          the tropics, even in January
                                          with the lower sun angle, we
                                          see irradiance levels well
                                          above 1,000 watts/square meter
                                          range.  Take a look at what I
                                          copied today from a weather
                                          station that we installed at
                                          nearby installation.</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">Given the
                                          clipping issue inherent in
                                          using undersized inverters, it
                                          seems to me that moving to
                                          larger output micros makes a
                                          whole lotta sense.  I’ve got
                                          one of the first installs
                                          using the Power-One 250-watt
                                          and 300-watt micros and am so
                                          far quite impressed.  Why use
                                          a 225-watt rated micro with a
                                          225-watt or higher output mod
                                          when larger micros are now
                                          readily available?</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">What are
                                          the views out there regarding
                                          this clipping issue?  Is it as
                                          minimal as our Enphase friends
                                          suggest in their latest white
                                          paper or more of an issue as I
                                          conclude?</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal">marco</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"><span
                                            style="color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="background:white">
                                          Environmentals from Weather
                                          Station at a Hilo, Hawaii
                                          installation</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="background:white"><b> </b></p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="background:white">Sunday,
                                          January 27th 2013, 12:40:00 pm</p>
                                        <p class="MsoNormal"
                                          style="background:white"> </p>
                                      </div>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="background:white;vertical-align:middle">
                                        <b>Ambient Temp.</b> 25.30 °C</p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="background:white;vertical-align:middle"><b>Cell
                                          Temp.</b> 41.70 °C</p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="background:white"> </p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="background:white"> </p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="background:white;vertical-align:middle"><b>Insolation</b> 127.81 kWh/m&sup2;</p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"
                                        style="background:white;vertical-align:middle"><b><span
                                            style="font-size:16.0pt">Irradiance <i>1,175.00</i> W/m&sup2;</span></b></p>
                                      <p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
                                    </div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                        </div>
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                          New;FONT-SIZE:9pt">
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                  <br>
                  -- <br>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span
                      style="font-size:14pt">Cordially,</span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><b><span
                        style="font-size:14pt">Nick Soleil</span></b><span
                      style="font-size:14pt"></span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><b><span>Field
                        Applications Engineer<br>
                      </span></b></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><b><span
                        style="color:rgb(227,108,10)">Enphase Energy</span></b></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span></span><span>Mobile:
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true" value="+17073212937">(707)
                        321-2937</a></span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><br>
                    <b><span style="color:rgb(227,108,10)"></span></b></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campaign=Comm2012"
                      target="_blank"><font><span
                          style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><b>Enphase
                            Commercial Solar.</b> <b><span
                              style="color:rgb(255,102,0)">Limitless.</span></b></span></font></a></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><a
                      moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campaign=Comm2012"
                      target="_blank"><font><span
                          style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif"><b><span
                              style="color:rgb(255,102,0)"><br>
                            </span></b></span></font></a></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span>1420
                      North McDowell<br>
                    </span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span>Petaluma,
                      CA 94954</span></div>
                  <p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span></span></p>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span><a
                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://www.enphaseenergy.com/"
                        target="_blank">www.enphase.com</a></span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span>P:
                      (707) 763-4784 x7267</span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span>F:
                      (707) 763-0784</span></div>
                  <div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in;
                    margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; "><span>E:
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:nsoleil@enphaseenergy.com"
                        target="_blank">nsoleil@enphaseenergy.com</a></span></div>
                  <p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt"><span></span></p>
                  <span></span>
                  <p><span
style="font-size:11pt;font-family:"Garamond","serif";color:rgb(31,73,125)"><span><image002.jpg></span> Certified
Solar
                      PV Installer #03262011-300</span></p>
                  <p>“Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s
                    just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so
                    happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor
                    safely banked a few million miles from us. It
                    delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8
                    minutes. And it’s wireless! .”  <br>
                  </p>
                  <p>- William McDonough
                    <span></span></p>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
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