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<div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Arial">Hi John,<br>
<br>
I don't feel that you are argumentative. I am glad for this
forum and people to put forth honest opinions.<br>
<br>
I think you just may not be aware of how the WEEB actually
works. It is </font><font face="Arial"><font face="Arial">a
type of rivet, </font>not just a pronged thing that makes
connection as part of a bolted connection.<br>
<br>
It does use a bolt to engage the part, but the teeth on the WEEB
are specially shaped. When the bolt is torqued, the teeth
deform, similarly to a rivet.<br>
The metal that it is connecting to mushrooms up around the tooth
and the tooth pinches in around the metal.<br>
This deforming action is what forms an exceptional electrical
connection and also forms an air-tight seal between the part and
embedded metal to resist corrosion.<br>
<br>
If you remove the bolt, the WEEB will still be connected to the
metal. You must forcibly remove the WEEB from the metal.<br>
<br>
Hope that clears things up for you.<br>
<br>
</font>
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<p><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Arial;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New
Roman";color:black">Best Regards,<br>
Brian Wiley<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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On 1/16/2013 12:53 PM, John Berdner wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Brain:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Not
trying to be argumentative here…<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
understand that you feel that a WEEB is equivalent to an
irreversibly spliced connection but, as most commonly used
in the field, I disagree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
Code does not recognize bolted connections of any kind as
equivalent to irreversible spliced or contiguous.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
is an issue of the type of connection not the presence of
the WEEB clip in that connection.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">For
Example: If the WEEB connection was riveted in place then
I believe it would be considered irreversibly spliced but
as part of a bolted connection, no.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">With
specific reference to GEC see 250.64C in the 2011 NEC or
2011 NEC Handbook. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lastly,
the argument that it is a similar level of difficult to
cutting the wire, while true, is not relevant to the Code
requirement. Cutting a contiguous wire is also a similar
level of difficulty to opening a bolted connection but
obviously a bolted connection is not a contiguous wire.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best
Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">John
Berdner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">General
Manager, North America<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><img
alt="SmallBannerPictEngnew" id="Picture_x0020_1"
src="cid:part1.05030108.08020308@gmail.com"
width="468" height="113"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">3347
Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA </span><b><i><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#C00000">(*Please
note of our new address.)</span></i></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><br>
T: 510.498.3201 ext 747<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">M:
530.277.4894 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>August Goers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for
Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Thanks
Brian. This has been a helpful thread for me. Mark Frye,
thanks for kicking it off.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,
August</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">August
Goers</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Luminalt
Energy Corporation</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">1320
Potrero Avenue</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">San
Francisco, CA 94110</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">m:
415.559.1525</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">o:
415.641.4000</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:august@luminalt.com">august@luminalt.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Brian Wiley<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:02 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for
Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Hi
August,<br>
<br>
I maintain that the WEEB is an irreversible splice.<br>
If you want to disconnect a WEEB from a structure, you
must irreversibly damage the device. It cannot be
reused.<br>
<br>
Admittedly the force required to remove a WEEB is less
than that required for a thermal splice, but it doesn't
take much force to just cut a wire either.<br>
<br>
I would argue that the intent of the code is to prevent
inadvertent removal of the ground. You must knowingly
remove a WEEB from the grounding path and if you do so
in the maintenance of an array, good workmanship
requires that you restore the connection.</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p><span
style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Best
Regards,<br>
Brian Wiley</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 1/15/2013 2:11 PM, August Goers
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<pre>Hi John,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I definitely see your point and that is why I was somewhat questioning the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>use of WEEBs with Enphase below. Enphases's instructions (link posted in<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>thread below) seem to indicate a support of running the continuous GEC on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the rack and then bonding the microinverter to the rack with WEEBs. Maybe<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I am misinterpreting the document or perhaps Enphase has another take.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>There is no question that according to NEC 250.64(C) the GEC must be<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>continuous. In the 2008 NEC handbook section 690.42 Point of System<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Grounding Connection has an application note "Connections are to be made<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>in accordance with markings on the equipment or in the installation<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>instructions."<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>All that said, it seems like technology is leaning towards listed AC<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Modules or floating array inverters. It sounds like that removes the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>requirement for a GEC which is great to help reduce installation costs.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The GEC has always been a pain in the neck.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>August<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of John<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Berdner<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:07 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>August:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>The WEEB or other Listed grounding means between the inverter case and the<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>structure are not "contiguous or irreversible spliced" and therefore do<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>not meet the requirements for a GEC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If the structure is then grounded via a bolt on lug it also is not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>irreversible or contiguous.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If you can unbolt something and disconnect the ground then it is not<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>contiguous or irreversibly spliced.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Both of the above are ok for EGC but not for GEC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>GEC is a pain in the neck but the Code requirements are clear.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>If the PV array conductor (pos or neg) is bonded to ground by the inverter<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>then the inverter requires a GEC with all the related requirements - no if<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and's or but's.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best Regards,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>John Berdner<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>General Manager, North America<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of our new<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>address.)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>T: 510.498.3201 ext 747<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>M: 530.277.4894<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of August<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Goers<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:32 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Hi Mark,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>There have been some recent threads on this list touching on this topic.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>As far as I understand, Enphase microinvertes still require a GEC up to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>and including the 2011 NEC. I don't know about the 2014 NEC. Enphase bonds<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the positive DC module conductor to ground. Pages 16 and 17 of their M215<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>installation manual address grounding:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://enphase.com/wp-uploads/enphase.com/2011/06/Enphase_M215_Installatio">http://enphase.com/wp-uploads/enphase.com/2011/06/Enphase_M215_Installatio</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>nOperation_Manual.pdf<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Products such as Solar Bridge that are listed as Alternating Current (AC)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Modules (per NEC 690.2) don't need a Grounding Electrode Conductor (GEC)<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>as long as there are no conductors connected to ground within the product.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Solar Bridge has a good article on this:<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://solarbridgetech.com/microinverters-and-ac-pv-modules-are-different/">http://solarbridgetech.com/microinverters-and-ac-pv-modules-are-different/</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>This all takes us back to using Enphase with grounding washers like WEEBs<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>for the GEC. According to what I read in their instructions (and after<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>many phone calls), it sounds like they are okay with us running the GEC on<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>the racking in #6 and then bonding the microinverters to the rack with<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>WEEBs. Seems a little strange but it's been working for us.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Good topic!<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Best,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>August<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>415.559.1525<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>-----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>From: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>[<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Frye<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 3:31 PM<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>To: RE-wrenches<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV Modules<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Does anyone have the latest on the GEC for micro-inverters/ACPV issue?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I know it is still in NEC 2008 and I believe 2011 with plans to address it<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>in 2014.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>I am specifically interested in the issue of GEC means continues<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>(irreversible splices) and the whole business of the DC side of these<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>devices constituting a separately derived system.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Enphase technical support is fine if the micro inverter chasis is bonded<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>to a EGC only, but they leave the lug on the chasis if you want/need to<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>build a GEC.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>SolarBridge (pre-assembled micro-inverter) seems to be devoid of a chasis<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>lug and therefore by extension does not/can not had a GEC in the system.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Exeltech (integrated micro-inverter aka. ACPV) does not seem to have a lug<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>on its chasis.<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre><o:p> </o:p></pre>
<pre>Has the industry pretty much moved to not requiring a GEC for these<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>devices and if so, how are the AHJ taking it?<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre> <o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Mark Frye<o:p></o:p></pre>
<pre>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems<o:p></o:p></pre>
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