<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>1. With SellRE enabled, the AGS timers don't work correctly and I doubt it will auto start. I know for sure it will not exercise. </div><div><br></div><div>2. Even if you turn off SellRE, the GVFX is persnickety about AC IN and I don't think your Genny will sync with the inverter and therefore it will not charge the batteries. <br><br>Thank you,<div><br></div><div>Maverick</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Maverick Brown</div><div>BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®</div><div>President & CEO</div><div>Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.</div><div>Office: 512-919-4493</div><div>Cell: 512-460-9825</div><div><br></div>Sent from an iPhone. </div><div><br>On Jan 16, 2013, at 11:53 AM, "SunHarvest" <<a href="mailto:eric@harvesthesun.com">eric@harvesthesun.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
<meta content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 9.00.8112.16457">
<style></style>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Finally got through to Outback. They said the
GVFX could be wired with a genny line-side of the inverter in order
for the genny to charge the batteries and that this configuration could
potentially cause problems for the genny. The likelihood of the PV sending
power to the generator is extremely small as the inverter needs to see 5
minutes of perfect power in addition to sensing a near full battery bank before
it will attempt to "sell" power back to the AC source. Additionally, when the
genset is connected with the AGS the generator will turn on automatically when
the batteries require absorption and automatically turn off when the batteries
are "full" (according to set points). The moment when the batteries reach that
"full" set point is when the inverter may attempt to "sell" power back but this
is when the AGS will shut down the generator.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">I have, on my house, an older Xantrex SW4024 and it
works fine with my Kohler 8.5kW genset but then again, it has two AC-IN inputs
which operate in mutual exclusion. Outback mentioned that while the FX series
inverters do not enjoy this feature, the Radian inverter re-introduces this
configuration. Hallelujah!</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">So, it sounds like the solution for the Outback
grid-tied BB system is to install an AGS...which is part of the plan as soon as
the homeowner completes some required genny repairs.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">The solution for the grid-tied Enphase system, it
seems, will have to be asking the homeowner to shut off his PV when the grid
goes down...Ugh.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">But reading back through the older posts in this
thread, pretty much all recommending against configuring the genset supply-side
of the inverter, the question remains, for me at least, how does the
generator charge the batteries if the genny is load-side of the
inverter?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Eric</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">SunHarvest</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="eric@harvesthesun.com" href="mailto:eric@harvesthesun.com">SunHarvest</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:47
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] off grid PV
connected to generator</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">For claification, the two installs with
which I'm concerned are:</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">1) Grid or 8.5kW Genset ---> Manual transfer
switch ---> FlexPower One w/GVFX3524, FM80, Mate ---> transformer to
240vac ---> Residential Loads. </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">This set up also has batteries and an
old 600Wstc PV array tied in to the FP1.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">2) Grid or ~10kW Genset determined
by auto transfer switch, all located at utility main
panel/meter located </font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">about 400' from main residence ---> Subpanel
and sub meter at main residence <--- PV-designated subpanel <--- 8.4kW
PV array w/Enphase micros.</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">It's good to hear (thanks Phil) that PV doesn't
auto disconnect when the genny kicks on (didn't think this was the case) but
if the PV does not disconnect don't we end up with PV
potentially backfeeding to the genset?? Isn't this thread discussing how PV
backfeeding to a genny is a dangerous configuration??</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">David, I can't disconnect the GVFX when the grid
is down and the genny on as both grid and genset supply the AC-IN to the
inverter via the manual transfer switch. But your comment begs the question:
Why do you recommend disconnecting the inverter?</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">Still trying to connect to an Outback tech (Katee
Wood)...</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>Eric</div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial">SunHarvest</font></div>
<div><font size="2" face="Arial"></font> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><b>From:</b>
<a title="dkatz@aeesolar.com" href="mailto:dkatz@aeesolar.com">David Katz</a>
</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:12
AM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] off grid PV
connected to generator</div>
<div><br></div>Phil,<br>If Eric is using the FX ot GTFX in an AC coupled
mode, he would need to disconnect the grid tie inverter when the generator
was running. From the thread, I cannot tell if this is his
situation.<br>David Katz<br><br>Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now
Network from Sprint!<br><br><br>
<div id="htc_header">----- Reply message -----<br>From: "Phil Undercuffler"
<<a href="mailto:solarphil@gmail.com">solarphil@gmail.com</a>><br>To:
"RE-wrenches" <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>Subject:
[RE-wrenches] off grid PV connected to generator<br>Date: Tue, Jan 15, 2013
8:07 pm<br><br></div><br><br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_extra">Eric, </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Good questions, and you hit on a number of topics so
let me see if I can address them one at a time, not necessarily in
chronological order. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Yes, the optimal application for the GTFX / GVFX
inverter series is grid tie with battery backup. If you just want
backup to the grid, the traditional FX is a great solution. If you
need extended run-time and want to integrate a generator, then the Radian
series is a better solution because it can not only integrate both grid and
generator, but it can change its operating parameters based on which input
it's connected to. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">The SW, XW and Radian inverters are all capable of
operating on-grid (grid-interactive or backup) or off-grid (with or without
a generator). However, none will automatically disconnect the PV when
the genny auto-starts, nor would I suggest that they should.
Realistically, the system should only start the genny when the
batteries are near depletion -- if it's started, the batteries need all the
help they can get. Rather, the generator should only be disconnected
(turned off) when the batteries reach the absorb setpoint. BTW, I
can't speak for everyone but none of those inverters have that
functionality, at least not yet.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">With 600 Watts of connected PV, I wouldn't worry
about disconnecting the PV. Even with a small battery bank, the sun
will set before that size of array drives the bank anywhere close to an
absorb voltage. Add another zero to the PV size and my answer would be
different, of course.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Also, if you do wind up installing an automatic
transfer switch with a battery-based inverter system, don't allow the ATS to
control the generator starting, even if that flies against every tradition
of the generator sales guy. You don't want the genny running through
every minute of the power outage, you want the system to start the genny
only when the batteries are low.</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Good luck with it, and enjoy the sun!</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra">Phil</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br></div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Jan 15, 2013 at 1:50 PM, SunHarvest <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eric@harvesthesun.com" target="_blank">eric@harvesthesun.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div id=":31">Further, I recently installed a GVFX for a customer. I'm
hearing from certain sources that the grid-tied line of inverters from
Outback are not designed to interface with a generator. Really??<br><br>I
was told by Outback to install a transfer switch line/supply side of the
inverter; that this was the only way to interface the genny with the
inverter; that the AC Hot In could come from grid or a genset. And indeed,
this is the only way I can figure out how to get the genny to charge the
batteries when the grid goes down. But then again, I don't have the
extensive electrical background that allows me to think outside the box as
often as I would like...that's why I'm posing my query here for the pros.
In this Outback install I have to again advise the homeowner to open the
PV breaker to the inverter during generator operation, right? Even though
he has a modest 600W (STC) array and an 8.5kW Kohler genset. Hardly the
opportunity for solar to feed back to the genny under the most sunny and
cool of days. I'm more concerned with the Enphase install.<br><br>The
Xantrex SW series inverters are fully capable of operating on-grid or
off-grid with a genset. So do those inverters automatically disconnect the
PV when the genny auto-starts? And with the Outback, is the Mate supposed
to do the same (as long as the genny is operated by the auto-start and not
a transfer switch)?</div></blockquote></div><br><br></div></div></div>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by
Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:
<a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options &
settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out
participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></blockquote>
<p>
</p><hr>
<p></p>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by
Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:
<a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options &
settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:
<a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List
rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out
participant
bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></blockquote>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>List sponsored by Home Power magazine</span><br><span></span><br><span>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Options & settings:</span><br><span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>List rules & etiquette:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a></span><br><span></span><br><span>Check out participant bios:</span><br><span><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></span><br><span></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>