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There is one possible argument that <u>might</u> be used. Sections of
busbar are permitted to be connected together 250-64 C 2. If the
aluminum frame and rail parts can be considered as busbars, which they
clearly are for grounding purposes, this would apply. I don't know that
too many inspectors would buy this one, however. <br><br>
<br>
At 01:17 PM 1/16/2013, you wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">Content-Class:
urn:content-classes:message<br>
Content-Language: en-US<br>
Content-Type: multipart/related;<br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>
boundary="_004_B448FC9E37458B469E77EA0BB954AD4702B670A694mailbox01_";<br>
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Mark:<br>
<br>
I agree that the Code requirement for GEC in grid tied PV makes no
sense.<br>
I have been trying to get it changed since the 2005 Code cycle.<br>
Until it does change (not even likely in 2014) we are stuck with it …
unless you float the array J<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
<br>
John Berdner<br>
General Manager, North America<br>
<br>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.0.20130116141825.05ac8c40@redwoodalliance.org.1" width=468 height=113 alt="SmallBannerPictEngnew">
<br>
<br>
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.<br>
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA <b><i>(*Please note of
our new address.)</i></b><br>
T: 510.498.3201 ext 747<br>
M: 530.277.4894 <br>
<br>
<b>From:</b> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Mark Frye<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 10:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV
Modules<br>
<br>
I believe the WEEB is a great product for producing equipment grounds.
But for producing a GEC I don't see it. Even if I bond the inverter case
to the rail with a WEEB what is the next step in the chain, a reversible
WEEB lug to bond the rail to the wire. Still, I don't think the GEC for
these microinverters is a rational requirement. It appears from the
discussion that if I have a seperately installed microinverter that bonds
it's DC side to ground, the Code requires a GEC but if I take that exact
same inverter, assemble it to a module and test and list them as an AC
module the requirement for GEC goes away. This is another indicator that
the application of this requirement in the Code itself is
specious.<br><br>
Mark Frye<br>
On 1/16/2013 9:53 AM, John Berdner wrote:<br>
<dl>
<dd>Brain:<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Not trying to be argumentative here…<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>I understand that you feel that a WEEB is equivalent to an
irreversibly spliced connection but, as most commonly used in the field,
I disagree.<br>
<dd>The Code does not recognize bolted connections of any kind as
equivalent to irreversible spliced or contiguous.<br>
<dd>It is an issue of the type of connection not the presence of the WEEB
clip in that connection.<br>
<dd>For Example: If the WEEB connection was riveted in place then I
believe it would be considered irreversibly spliced but as part of a
bolted connection, no.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>With specific reference to GEC see 250.64C in the 2011 NEC or 2011
NEC Handbook. <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Lastly, the argument that it is a similar level of difficult to
cutting the wire, while true, is not relevant to the Code
requirement. Cutting a contiguous wire is also a similar level of
difficulty to opening a bolted connection but obviously a bolted
connection is not a contiguous wire.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Best Regards,<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>John Berdner<br>
<dd>General Manager, North America<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>
<img src="cid:7.1.0.9.0.20130116141825.05ac8c40@redwoodalliance.org.1" width=468 height=113 alt="SmallBannerPictEngnew">
<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of
our new address.)</i></b><br>
<dd>T: 510.498.3201 ext 747<br>
<dd>M: 530.277.4894 <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of
</b>August Goers<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 16, 2013 9:22 AM<br>
<dd>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV
Modules<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Thanks Brian. This has been a helpful thread for me. Mark Frye,
thanks for kicking it off.<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Best, August<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>August Goers<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Luminalt Energy Corporation<br>
<dd>1320 Potrero Avenue<br>
<dd>San Francisco, CA 94110<br>
<dd>m: 415.559.1525<br>
<dd>o: 415.641.4000<br>
<dd><a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com">august@luminalt.com</a><br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of
</b>Brian Wiley<br>
<dd>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 15, 2013 1:02 PM<br>
<dd>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<dd>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV
Modules<br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>Hi August,<br><br>
<dd>I maintain that the WEEB is an irreversible splice.<br>
<dd>If you want to disconnect a WEEB from a structure, you must
irreversibly damage the device. It cannot be reused.<br><br>
<dd>Admittedly the force required to remove a WEEB is less than that
required for a thermal splice, but it doesn't take much force to just cut
a wire either.<br><br>
<dd>I would argue that the intent of the code is to prevent inadvertent
removal of the ground. You must knowingly remove a WEEB from the
grounding path and if you do so in the maintenance of an array, good
workmanship requires that you restore the connection. <br><br>
<dd>Best Regards,<br>
<dd>Brian Wiley<br><br>
<dd> <br>
<dd>On 1/15/2013 2:11 PM, August Goers wrote:<br>
<dl><br>
<dd><pre>Hi John,</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>I definitely see your point and that is why I was somewhat
questioning the</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>use of WEEBs with Enphase below. Enphases's instructions (link
posted in</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>thread below) seem to indicate a support of running the
continuous GEC on</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>the rack and then bonding the microinverter to the rack with
WEEBs. Maybe</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>I am misinterpreting the document or perhaps Enphase has another
take.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>There is no question that according to NEC 250.64(C) the GEC
must be</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>continuous. In the 2008 NEC handbook section 690.42 Point of
System</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Grounding Connection has an application note "Connections
are to be made</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>in accordance with markings on the equipment or in the
installation</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>instructions."</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier">
</font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>All that said, it seems like technology is leaning towards
listed AC</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Modules or floating array inverters. It sounds like that removes
the</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>requirement for a GEC which is great to help reduce installation
costs.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>The GEC has always been a pain in the
neck.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Best,</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>August</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>-----Original
Message-----</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>From:
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of
John</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Berdner</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 7:07
PM</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>To:
RE-wrenches</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV
Modules</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>August:</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>The WEEB or other Listed grounding means between the inverter
case and the</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>structure are not "contiguous or irreversible spliced"
and therefore do</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>not meet the requirements for a
GEC.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>If the structure is then grounded via a bolt on lug it also is
not</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>irreversible or
contiguous.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>If you can unbolt something and disconnect the ground then it is
not</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>contiguous or irreversibly
spliced.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Both of the above are ok for EGC but not for
GEC.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>GEC is a pain in the neck but the Code requirements are
clear.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>If the PV array conductor (pos or neg) is bonded to ground by
the inverter</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>then the inverter requires a GEC with all the related
requirements - no if</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>and's or
but's.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Best
Regards,</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>John Berdner</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>General Manager, North
America</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>SolarEdge Technologies,
Inc.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note
of our new</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>address.)</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>T: 510.498.3201 ext
747</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>M:
530.277.4894</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>-----Original
Message-----</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>From:
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of
August</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Goers</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 4:32
PM</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>To:
RE-wrenches</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV
Modules</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Hi Mark,</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>There have been some recent threads on this list touching on
this topic.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>As far as I understand, Enphase microinvertes still require a
GEC up to</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>and including the 2011 NEC. I don't know about the 2014 NEC.
Enphase bonds</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>the positive DC module conductor to ground. Pages 16 and 17 of
their M215</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>installation manual address
grounding:</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="http://enphase.com/wp-uploads/enphase.com/2011/06/Enphase_M215_Installatio">
http://enphase.com/wp-uploads/enphase.com/2011/06/Enphase_M215_Installatio</a>
</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>nOperation_Manual.pdf</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier">
</font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Products such as Solar Bridge that are listed as Alternating
Current (AC)</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Modules (per NEC 690.2) don't need a Grounding Electrode
Conductor (GEC)</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>as long as there are no conductors connected to ground within
the product.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Solar Bridge has a good article on
this:</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>
<a href="http://solarbridgetech.com/microinverters-and-ac-pv-modules-are-different/">
http://solarbridgetech.com/microinverters-and-ac-pv-modules-are-different/</a>
</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>This all takes us back to using Enphase with grounding washers
like WEEBs</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>for the GEC. According to what I read in their instructions (and
after</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>many phone calls), it sounds like they are okay with us running
the GEC on</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>the racking in #6 and then bonding the microinverters to the
rack with</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>WEEBs. Seems a little strange but it's been working for
us.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Good topic!</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Best,</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>August</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>415.559.1525</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>-----Original
Message-----</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>From:
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre>
<font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" eudora="autourl">
mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark
Frye</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 3:31
PM</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>To:
RE-wrenches</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Subject: [RE-wrenches] GEC for Micro-Inverters and ACPV
Modules</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Does anyone have the latest on the GEC for micro-inverters/ACPV
issue?</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>I know it is still in NEC 2008 and I believe 2011 with plans to
address it</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>in 2014.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>I am specifically interested in the issue of GEC means
continues</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>(irreversible splices) and the whole business of the DC side of
these</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>devices constituting a separately derived
system.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Enphase technical support is fine if the micro inverter chasis
is bonded</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>to a EGC only, but they leave the lug on the chasis if you
want/need to</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>build a GEC.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>SolarBridge (pre-assembled micro-inverter) seems to be devoid of
a chasis</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>lug and therefore by extension does not/can not had a GEC in the
system.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Exeltech (integrated micro-inverter aka. ACPV) does not seem to
have a lug</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>on its
chasis.</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Has the industry pretty much moved to not requiring a GEC for
these</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>devices and if so, how are the AHJ taking
it?</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre> </pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Thanks,</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Mark Frye</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>Berkeley Solar Electric
Systems</pre><font face="Courier New, Courier"></font><br>
<dd><pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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