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How about off grid arc fault ??<br>
<br>
It seems that I don't see much talk or interest in that.<br>
<br>
Thanks !<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/14/2012 9:44 AM, Bill Brooks wrote:<br>
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">August,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Who
at SMA said that they won’t be shipping AFCI inverters? I
know they have been manufacturing. I have two of the AFCI
inverters in operation at my office and they are very
impressive. Three months of operation since startup without
a single nuisance trip and it trips every time I simulate a
fault. I would press SMA on delivery since I believe they
are available. It may be either an internal hold on the
product or bad information.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Eaton
has released their AFCI component but it is not a listed
component so it has to be incorporated into a listed product
like a combiner box or inverter. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Although
the AFCI technology will have some issues in implementation,
I believe that it is going to solve a lot of safety issues,
particularly with residential systems. We have been seeing
more and more series arc fault failures in the field, so the
timing could not be better. Even if you are in a region that
does not enforce the 2011 NEC yet, I would recommend
seriously looking at products in this area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">One
word of caution. I believe AFCI products incorporated into
inverters will be more successful in the short term than
products that are independent of the inverter. The reason
for this is simple. When the product developer has the
defined noise signature of the inverter, they can build a
product that accounts for the that noise signature
(transistor switching). Without that key piece of data,
there will be stand-alone AFCI products that have problems
with particular inverters and other components (dc-dc
converters). These interactions are difficult to predict
without product by product testing. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Over
the next few years, products like the one from Eaton will
create lists of inverters that they know work well with
their products. Until you get some good data on that issue,
be careful.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Lastly,
it is way cool to be able to walk up to a combiner box or
plug connector and open it under load and see the inverter
trip on the detected arc-fault. These products will become
common retrofit items as modules, connectors, combiner
boxes, and inverters have connection defects that start
fires. Often, the only cost-effective way to fix these
connection problems is with detection since replacing PV
arrays and other products may be far more costly than
installing an AFCI detector.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bill.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>August Goers<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 14, 2012 9:11 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Hi
David and Rebecca -</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">We're
still in the 2008 code cycle here in California so AFCI
hasn't become an issue yet. I just listened to a webinar by
SMA last week and I believe that their AFCI Sunny Boys wont'
be shipping for at least a couple of months.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Rebecca,
have you already installed this system? What type of
inverter do you want to use? NEC 90.4 (Enforcement) states
this:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">"This<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Code</i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>may require new
products, constructions, or materials that may not yet be
available at the time the<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Code</i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>is adopted. In such
event, the authority having jurisdiction may permit the use
of the products, constructions, or materials that comply
with the most recent previous edition of this<span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Code</i><span
class="apple-converted-space"> </span>adopted by the
jurisdiction."</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">So,
you might be able to convince the AHJ to enforce the 2008
NEC which doesn't require AFCI. Or, use microinverters or
ACPV as David mentioned below.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">Good
luck out there!</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black">-August
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>David Brearley<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 13, 2012 9:02 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Two NEC questions</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">RE Question #2: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Article 100 defines a service as:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Service.</b> The conductors and
equipment for delivering electric energy <i>from</i> the
serving utility to the wiring system of the premises
served. (<i>emphasis added</i>)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">PV system wiring simply does not fit
that definition. The PV system is not part of the serving
utility. And inverters are not service equipment. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">You need to refers them to this
definition in Article 705.2 (added in NEC 2011):<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Power Production Equipment.</b> The
generating source, and <i>all</i> distribution
equipment associated with it, that generates electricity
from a source <i>other than</i> a utility supplied
service. (<i>emphasis added</i>)<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">FWIW: Mike Holt has written for SP
about the Code requirements for interconnecting PV
systems, as well as some additional recommendations for
making supply side connections:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA&search=">http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP5_1_pg14_QA&search=</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">RE Question #1: I had a local inspector
ask me about this in late-August & there were
relatively few listed products at that time:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul style="margin-top:0in" type="disc">
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">SMA
America has dc AFCI in their standard SunnyBoy US-series
inverters (SB 3000-US, SB 3800-US, SB 4000-US, SB
5000-US, SB 6000-US, SB7000-US, SB 8000-US): <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/news-information/current-news/news/news/1487.html">http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/news-information/current-news/news/news/1487.html</a><o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">Microinverter
systems (Enphase, Enecsys, etc.) typically do not
operate above 80 Vdc and are therefore exempt from
690.11<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">AC
module systems (powered by SolarBridge, Exeltech, etc.)
typically do not operate above 80 Vdc and are therefore
exempt from 690.11<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">SolarBOS
reportedly has a dc AFDI and GFI combiner box: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.solarbos.com/news/solarbos-puts-out-the-fire-in-pv-systems">http://www.solarbos.com/news/solarbos-puts-out-the-fire-in-pv-systems</a> (However,
I don't see this product on their website under their
regular lists of products.)<o:p></o:p></li>
<li class="MsoNormal" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">While
module-level dc-to-dc converters—like those from
SolarEdge and Tigo Energy—presumably have the ability to
provide dc AFCI capabilities, last I checked it didn't
look like any of them were formally listed to do so.<o:p></o:p></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I suspect that most manufacturers are
trying to avoid spending additional money on testing until
the market requires this. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Have any wrenches here actually had an
inspector required dc AFCI? Also, is the dc AFCI test
standard actually finalized and adopted at this point or
are companies testing to a draft standard? <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="apple-style-span"><span
style="font-family:"Cambria","serif"">David
Brearley, Senior Technical Editor</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span
class="apple-style-span"><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:black">SolarPro
magazine </span></span><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:black"><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">NABCEP Certified PV
Installer ™</span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:david.brearley@solarprofessional.com">david.brearley@solarprofessional.com</a></span><br>
<span class="apple-style-span">Direct: 541.261.6545</span><br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Oct 13, 2012, at 10:12 AM,
Rebecca Lundberg wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear
fellow wrenches,<br>
<br>
Does anyone have suggestions for the 'best' way to keep
up with product availability for meeting 690.11 on DC
AFCI? I understand that when this code section was
written there was no available device, and know that at
least several companies are working on devices. How will
I know (before the AHJ knows :-) that residential-scale
products are available for purchase, and at what point
would you say now should be required over every other
option?<br>
<br>
Second question: I have an inspector insisting that the
solar PV system is the same as a utility service, and is
requiring all of the required service code references to
apply. Anybody have a concise reference that might
convince him otherwise? This same inspector has decided
that the electrical permit will have adders for each
inverter as service equipment, and each module as an
electrical device. It would sure be nice if there was
more consistency...we're still in the early adopter
phase here in Minnesota.<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance for your input.<br clear="all">
<br>
Keep Shining!<br>
<span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Rebecca
Lundberg<br>
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®<br>
Owner/CEO, Powerfully Green<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Rebecca.Lundberg@PowerfullyGreen.com">Rebecca.Lundberg@PowerfullyGreen.com</a><br>
763-438-1976</span><br>
<br>
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