Im with you on the wisdom of it.<div><br></div><div>The problem with my area is that people maybe good a grid tie, but there are very few people that understand the off-grid applications (DT is the only person I think is worth listening to.) The contractor they chose was the only contractor the home owners spoke to that lacked any type of certification, not that that means anything. The homeowner told them what they wanted to do and the contractor said okay. Even though it was a poor idea. I was shown email conversations between the two. Of course there is always two sides to these stories...</div>
<div><br></div><div>The system was supposed to use two wind generators to charge two battery banks and then feed to FX3048 Outback inverters. Both inverters were also tied to the homes panelboard to help charge the bank in-case of low wind. The two Outbacks fed a 100A panelboard that had a few loads from the home wired to it (well pump, furnace, sump, various receptacles) The panel also has a bypass switch that allows it to bypass the inverters all together and use straight grid power to run the loads. </div>
<div><br></div><div>The homeowner supplied the wind and the controllers, the contractor supplied the inverters and electrical BOS and the 16 MK 12V batteries. Another contractor came up to program the setpoints.</div><div>
<br></div><div>I have mentioned jobs like this before on the list, and I keep finding them up here, its getting a little old. </div><div><br></div><div>I told them today to get both generators up to at least 80 feet or to scrap both a install a 4kW array. I also said if the want to hire me, what I say goes and if I say it all comes out to start over, that's what happens. <br>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 12:40 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com" target="_blank">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<font face="arial" size="4"><p style="margin:0;padding:0">i am not understanding the 'wisdom' of using non-grid tie inverters in this application. it is pretty easy to modify the inverters (board change out) to grid tie models, which would allow the inverter's to transfer the loads to the grid (internal transfer switch) and 'sleep' until there is an outage to back up. the only additional use the system would bring to their bill is re-floating the batteries occasionally.<br>
<br>with no renewable input (except silly, yard-art wind gennys), basically they have an expensive whole-house ups. i wonder what the intention or original design was supposed to do?</p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0">todd</p><div><div class="h5">
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0">On Friday, August 24, 2012 9:14am, "Jesse Dahl" <<a href="mailto:dahlsolar@gmail.com" target="_blank">dahlsolar@gmail.com</a>> said:<br><br></p>
<div>
<div>I do not want to take this on! The wind, from what I have gathered is an absolute bust. Just doing a little online research it seems like they are getting next to nothing from the wind generators.</div>
<div>From my little understanding of the system and reading replies, I would say they are buying power, losing 30% of it and then powering loads.</div>
<div>This system was installed by a contractor in Duluth, MN.</div>
<div>Jesse <br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>On Aug 24, 2012, at 10:31 AM, Kent Osterberg <<a href="mailto:kent@coveoregon.com" target="_blank">kent@coveoregon.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
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<div>Two 1-kW wind generators doesn't sound like enough to provide energy for a household except possibly in the best circumstances. If there isn't much wind, the system is getting most of it's energy from the grid. The utility bill would go up even if they were using the same amount of energy in the house. Batteries are energy losers!<br>
<br> What Dave and others have warned about kWh metering issues is also true. The new digital meters have many capabilities and the default for most of them is to record energy going in either direction as energy consumed. Since they are programmable, the same meter can be used to record net energy - behave like most disk-type meters; ignore energy in one direction - behave like a detented meter; or record both incoming energy and outgoing energy separately - a two register meter. <br>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0">Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
<a href="http://www.bluemountainsolar.com" target="_blank">www.bluemountainsolar.com</a>
On 8/24/2012 6:26 AM, Jesse Dahl wrote:</p></div>
<blockquote>
<div>The system only uses grid power to charge batteries, they have two FX3048T in parallel so I don't think the meter is the issue.</div>
<div>They did send me a picture of the two wind towers, one is 20 feet off the ground and one is 60 feet off the ground... No wind would be an understatement.</div>
<div><br><br> Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br> On Aug 24, 2012, at 7:43 AM, David Katz <<a href="mailto:dkatz@aeesolar.com" target="_blank">dkatz@aeesolar.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></div>
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Check to see if their meter goes backwards. Some utility meters actually charge for power when you are selling.<br> Or maybe they have no wind and a new big flat screen tv that they leave on all the time.<br>
David Katz<br><br><br>
<div>----- Reply message -----<br> From: "Jesse Dahl" <<a href="mailto:dahlsolar@gmail.com" target="_blank">dahlsolar@gmail.com</a>><br> To: "Wrenches" <<a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback with grid charging<br> Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:28 pm<br><br></div>
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<div>Hello,<br><br> I got a call from a family today about a system they had installed recently and they think they have a problem. They claim their electric bill has just about doubled since the system has been installed due to outback using the grid to power the loads instead of the battery bank. They claim the MATE always shows the system buying the exact amount as any load on the system draws. Due to the distance from my shop, I would like to get any ideas on what could cause this before I drive all the way there. <br>
<br> What I know about the system:<br> 2 - outback inverters, 48v <br> 2 - whisper 500 wind generators with whisper charge controllers<br> 16 - MK 12v AGMS (8/inverter)<br><br> I guessing setting, but if anyone has seen this before, I'd like to narrow it down before the drive. <br>
<br> Thanks eh!<br><br> Jesse<br><br> Sent from my iPad!!!<br> _______________________________________________</div>
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