<html><head><base href="x-msg://129/"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hello John,<div><br></div><div>Thank you for your helpful explanation. I wonder if there should be a "six" life, that being time.</div><div><br></div><div>Lets use the small summer cabin analogy that gets used for one month a year. Let's say the system has Four T105 -RE's, 500 watts of PV, 4 average daily sun hours. They do one discharge/charge cycle down to 20% DOD and then fully charge again the same day for a 2 hour absorb. That would be 30 discharge cycles a year x 8 years = 240 discharge/charge cycles.</div><div><br></div><div>If one was to design and instal a proper battery based system using the guidelines presented in this email thread with plenty of PV for daily charging, periodic EQ's, 20% or less DOD, no electrolyte on the battery tops to cause corrosion, never letting the plates go dry from low electrolyte level and having them at a cool 60º F year round would you expect this summer cabin system to last 4000 cycles? In a perfect world would that be 4000 cycles ÷ summer cabin 30 discharge/charge cycles a year = 133 years ??</div><div><br></div><div>Of course I am not expecting that, but am just trying to squeeze the longest life span possible out of batteries that mostly just sit.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Jason Lerner</div><div><br></div><div>Waldron Power and Light Co.</div><div><div><div>On Jul 13, 2012, at 10:33 AM, John DeBoever wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Forcing a lead acid battery to cycle for the fun of it reduces its cycle life.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">In a nutshell, lead acid batteries have “five lives”, each varying depending their specific intrinsic technology attributes developed by the battery OEM:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>o<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Cycle life<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>o<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Corrosion life<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>o<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Stratification life<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>o<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Shorting life<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0.5in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -0.25in; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><span>o<span style="font: normal normal normal 7pt/normal 'Times New Roman'; "> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">And… Temperature life<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">These lives are all inter-connected and temperature is the one that is the most influent to all of them. The interesting part is that all of these “5 lives” are 90% of the time exacerbated by the system sizing (cyclic/non-cyclic, loads, insollation, PV array, battery bank size, wiring and power conditioning losses, etc.), the install, the setting points commissioning, the maintenance, not to forget the load patterns (perceived vs. reality dynamics and growth of the load). Cycling for cycling does not increase the battery life. Adequate cycling based on adequate full recharge keep the battery in good health.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">John<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">John F. DeBoever<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">Global Technical & Projects Director – Renewable Energy<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">Trojan Battery Company<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 8pt; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; ">12380 Clark Street<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; ">Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; ">Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(149, 55, 53); ">Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)<o:p></o:p></span></b></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 9pt; ">Skype: john.f.deboever<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 9pt; ">Fax: +1-562-236-3239<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a href="mailto:jdeboever@trojanbattery.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 9pt; ">jdeboever@trojanbattery.com</span></a><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 9pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><a href="http://www.trojanbattery.com/" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; "><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 9pt; ">www.trojanbattery.com</span></a><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 9pt; "><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang="FR" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); "><o:p> </o:p></span></div><div><div style="border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-left-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding-top: 3pt; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 0in; "><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b><a href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">larry@starlightsolar.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday, July 13, 2012 12:18 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Jason,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity or life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the battery. This is one of many battery myths. <o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Larry Crutcher<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Starlight Solar Power Systems<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote id="replyBlockquote" style="border-top-style: none; border-right-style: none; border-bottom-style: none; border-width: initial; border-color: initial; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding-top: 0in; padding-right: 0in; padding-bottom: 0in; padding-left: 6pt; margin-left: 6pt; margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; "><div id="wmQuoteWrapper"><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience<br>From: Jason Lerner <<a href="mailto:wapalco@rockisland.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">wapalco@rockisland.com</a>><br>Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am<br>To: RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><br>Hello John,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once a year for a few weeks. The batteries in these systems generally do not die from over cycling, but from over/under watering, acid stratification, corrosion, and generally being ignored. The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability, and float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really never get used, and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Thanks very much,<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Jason Lerner<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; ">Waldron Power and Light Co.<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-left: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Verdana, sans-serif; color: black; "><o:p> </o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br clear="all">This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all locations. Thank you. _______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>