<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">For more clarity, it does not matter the size or voltage of the battery. You still need to achieve 0.5% or less of the rated capacity to consider the battery 100% charged.<br><div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">Larry </div></div></span></span></div></span></div></span></span></div><div><div><br></div><div>On Jul 9, 2012, at 7:07 AM, Allan Sindelar wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Larry,<br>
While I agree with your assessment of Mick's settings, some of
what you write doesn't make sense to me, and I'd like to better
understand.<br>
<br>
Re: "End Absorb Amps will only look at the controller current, not
net battery current. If loads are on, the current may be higher
than your setting and the controller will continue with monitoring
the ChgT". I have understood that this is the point: that any
loads will pull down battery voltage, requiring the controller to
raise the absorb current to allow more amps in to compensate,
leaving the controller in absorb rather than switching to float.
It thus doesn't need to look at net battery current (as does the
IPN control algorithm) in order to maintain absorption. What am I
missing here?<br>
<br>
Mick didn't say what the AH capacity of the cells was, but the
smallest 2V Concordes are 500 Ah and the largest are 1200 Ah,
meaning an 11% to about a 4% float transition current, either way
too high if we want somewhere between 0.5% and 2.5%, depending on
who we listen to. It seems as though this is the real culprit,
along with an absorption time that is set way too low and causes
chronic undercharge, and the Outback's end amps function would
work well, as long as it's set correctly (and ideally raised a bit
as the batteries age, which is seldom likely to happen).<br>
<br>
Your thoughts? I respect your experience.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
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On 7/8/2012 10:32 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
Systems wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:AA9ACE41-4AC8-4288-BBDF-06CE703C1EDF@starlightsolar.com" type="cite">No. End Absorb Amps will only look at the controller
current, not net battery current. If loads are on, the current may
be higher than your setting and the controller will continue with
monitoring the ChgT. More importantly, if current drops below your
setting and the battery is not 100%, it will still drop to float
mode. Not good.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Without a FlexnetDC and Mate to determine SoC, the only use I
can see for this function is if you had a constant load on the
system. Then you could calculate the right transition value.<br>
<div>
<div>
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; ">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Larry </div>
</div>
</span></span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Jul 8, 2012, at 10:00 AM, mac Lewis wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Larry,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Would the
Absorb End Amps setting act similarly to the IPN chargers
from Solar Boost if you set a very long absorb time and
had it end absorb stage after it dropped below the desired
current level?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 9:40 AM,
Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com" target="_blank">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">Hello Mick,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think your set-points for voltage are fine.
The Rebulk is of little importance for an
unoccupied property as voltage should be easily
maintained.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The bad news: In a nut shell you have told the
MX charger to stop charging if the PV current
drops below 45 amps or 0 to 60 minutes after
reaching the absorb setting. I don't think you can
ever reach 100% SoC with this setup so the battery
may have been deficit charged every day.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><u>Absorb Time Limit, Min</u>:</div>
<div>With AGM batteries, this setting should be
determined by measuring <u>how much absorb time</u>
it takes for the current to the battery to drop
below 0.5% of the banks rated capacity. For
example, a 1000 AH bank this would be 5 amps. If
it takes 60 minutes to reach this point, use that
number for "Min". By leaving it at 0, the MX60
will choose the absorb time based on the
bulk/absorb charge timer which may not be enough
at an unoccupied property. Example, if the bulk
time is only 30 minutes, the absorb time is 30
minutes unless the "Min" is set higher.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><u>Absorb Time Limit, Max:</u></div>
<div>The factory default is 2 hours. This value
needs to be at least 10 minutes longer than the
"Min" time set above. One hour means that is the
longest time the controller will stay in absorb.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><u>Absorb End Amps (misc settings)</u></div>
<div>Here's the real culprit. By setting this at 45
amps, you have told the controller to stop absorb
charging 15 seconds after it starts if your
current is less than 45A. Obviously this will
leave the battery deficit charged unless the float
current and sun hours remaining can make up this
deficit. Reset this to zero, the factory default,
and let the Min/Max settings control the charge.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a note on charging AGM's: My opinion is
that the only reliable way to properly charge an
AGM battery is by monitoring the current to the
battery and adjusting the charge time accordingly.
For this reason, I recommend charge controllers
that have this function, like the Blue Sky Energy
Solar Boost IPN controllers. With this method, you
can force the absorb voltage to remain as long as
necessary until the battery reaches 100% SoC.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><br>
Larry Crutcher</div>
<div>Starlight Solar Power
Systems</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%28928%29%20342-9103" value="+19283429103" target="_blank">(928) 342-9103</a></div>
<span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><span style="text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:normal;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:normal;border-collapse:separate;text-transform:none;font-size:medium;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div><u><br>
</u></div>
<div><u><br>
</u></div>
</div>
</span></span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div>On Jul 7, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Mick
Abraham wrote:</div>
<br>
Greetings, All~<br>
<br>
My client's string of SunXtender two volt
AGM's won't hold a charge...after only two
years! The prior AGM batteries also turned
to toast prematurely. There must be a better
way, so could we review the Outback charge
setpoints? <br>
<br>
Side note: Delta-v from the highest 2v cell
to the lowest shows a gap of only .148v
during a charge cycle so cell imbalance is
not the likely problem. I think they're all
working together equally bad. <br>
<br>
A small amount of dry powder--light green
color resembling verdegris finish on
copper--can be seen around 30% of the +/-
posts, in an amount smaller than 1/8
teaspoon. From this sign, I suspect that the
cells have vented and dried out. The
property is vacant 90% of the time so I am
mostly focused on the MX60 solar charge
controller as the culprit.<br>
<br>
This is an early vintage Outback controller,
firmware version 5.11. Temperature
compensation is in place; automatic EQ is
defeated. Bulk & absorption setpoints
exactly match those requested by
Concorde/SunXtender: 28.8 volts
bulk/absorption & 26.4 volts Float. The
controller does regulate at these voltage
points so it's technically "working"--just
grinding up batteries on a regular basis.<br>
<br>
The Concorde people do not furnish
suggestions regarding absorption time or
"rebulking" so that may be the source of
trouble. Controller setpoints have the
Absorption Time Limit set for "0 minutes
minimum & 1 hour maximum". The
controller is also set to "rebulk" the
battery at a 23 volt trigger and there's an
inscrutable setpoint called "End" that's set
for 45 amps. I have a theory about the
meaning of that but I'll keep the noise
level down...<br>
<br>
If I recall correctly, the Outback end of
charge routine in early days was to start a
clock & see how long it takes to move
the battery to the bulk/absorption voltage
then apply an equal amount of time for an
absorption charge before shifting to float.
Steve Higgins may confirm if that is indeed
the protocol for a version 5.11 controller
but: has that method now been changed in the
newer version Flexmax controllers? It seems
those now have an absorption duration value
that can be changed so maybe that's what we
need--a replacement controller along with
good information on the absorption duration
and/or float setpoints, etc. <br>
<br>
I see that some controllers can even be set
to not Float at all. Maybe that's better:
run the charge then stop it all for the rest
of the day. OR: thinking outside the box
here...what about a controller that won't
initiate charge cycle at all unless the
battery voltage crests down to a trigger
point. All I know for sure is that two sets
of valuable batteries have now been ruined
so "normal" charge setpoints are not working
well in this situation.<br>
<br>
If some better electronics (such as blending
in the Outback capacity monitor gizmo) might
help, I'm all ears. Next time maybe I'll
suggest flooded cells to the client instead
of AGM's, but the cells are in a crawlspace
that gets freezing cold at times. <br>
<br>
Thanks in advance for advice &
suggestions. A second off grid client has a
similar setup so I need to hotfoot it out
there and tweak that (more recent) Outback
controller to match the suggested setpoint
revisions...before bad things happen again.
<br>
<br>
Jolliness,<br>
<br clear="all">
Mick Abraham, Proprietor<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com/" target="_blank">www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br>
<br>
Voice: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:970-731-4675" value="+19707314675" target="_blank">970-731-4675</a><br>
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