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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Mick and Wrenches,<br>
I faced a similar question with a new bank just a couple of weeks
ago. In my case I asked my distributor, and his response is below.
He makes some interesting points, including a very different end
amps than the factory's.<br>
<br>
We have received very good service from this distributor, in case
any Wrenches are looking for a Concorde distributor.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-signature">
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charset=ISO-8859-1">
<title></title>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
<small><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font
color="#000099" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a></small><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
Founder and Chief Technology Officer<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3209 Richards Lane (note new address)<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></font>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I’ve
had this conversation with several engineers and the
responses are variable – so I will present what I believe to
be true.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
aircraft battery side of Concorde says that a fully charged
battery is one that reduces its current draw to under a
nominal 0.5% of the 20/24 hour rating.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
RV/Marine & Solar guys insist that 2% to 5% is also a
realistic number. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
factory only quotes numbers for new batteries – I have not
been able to get concrete numbers for “less than new”
batteries. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
is my opinion that the “right” number is very low with new
batteries and climbs with battery age.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">My
choice would be to program a 2.5% to 3% current draw using
a temperature compensated charger.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When
looking at real world conditions that you and I encounter
daily:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Off
grid PV systems most often do not have enough available
hours to be concerned with excess absorption/acceptance
hours. Even “occasional use on weekends” type systems are
limited to “x” number of hours of solar input. (It gets dark
for several hours every night – no matter what!) In reality,
BY FAR more systems suffer from chronic undercharging than
excess time in absorption mode!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Grid
tied battery backed systems, along with wind and hydro
turbine systems can be a different animal because of the
potential for “unlimited hours” of full power input for
charging. THIS is when the current draw being used as a
charge level indicator is most often needed, but........<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo1"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">3)<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Undercharging</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
is still by FAR the most common cause of premature battery
failure. I have seen several battery banks survive the abuse
of constant 24/7 charging at full absorption levels for five
to six years, but I have yet to see one battery bank survive
chronic undercharging for five years. These batteries used
in RV/Marine/Industrial applications often see constant
alternator-regulator outputs of 14.2v for 12 to 16 hours per
day continuously. No, they don’t last as long as we want to
see for our needs, but they often make it 5-7 years under
really harsh conditions coupled with no float time.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Re-stating
my view in simple terms:<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">A
battery bank is fully charged when the current draw drops
to 2.5 amps per hundred amps of battery bank capacity.
Time to reach this point is almost irrelevant because of
the variables.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">BUT......a
programmed time limit can be a VERY good thing in case of
battery system or cabling faults which present a false
load to the charging system – resulting in runaway
charging!<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">-<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
best time limit is dependent upon individual project
parameters, but a good starting point is 25%-50% more time
than the calculated charging time for a depleted battery
bank.<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Hoping
this makes sense! <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Allan,
always feel free to send a note to Concorde to get their
input! As I said above, I can’t avoid seeing things through
the filter of my experience. That doesn’t always jive with
the manual.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Best,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Marc
Kurth<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Centex
Batteries, LLC<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">704
W Highway 71 - Suite B100<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Bastrop,
TX 78602<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Ph
512 308-9002<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Fax
877 254-2702<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marc@centexbatteries.com">marc@centexbatteries.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#4F81BD"><a
href="http://centexbatteries.com/"><span
style="color:#4F81BD">http://centexbatteries.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Allan Sindelar [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com">mailto:allan@positiveenergysolar.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 27, 2012 5:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marc@centexbatteries.com">marc@centexbatteries.com</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Need a setting, please<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Marc, <br>
Concorde provides good recommendations of voltage setpoints,
which we follow. What is missing is a recommendation for
absorb time.<br>
<br>
For one of our recent PVX-9159 24V off grid systems, I have
changed the charge setpoints, but need to know how long
minimum and maximum to set the Outback MX-60 charge controller
to stay in absorption mode (at 2.38 vpc with temp
compensation) to fully complete charging before switching to
float. If the answer is that the battery can stay in
absorption indefinitely, then I will set it to the charge
controller's maximum duration of 4 hours.<br>
<br>
Could you ask Concorde for a recommendation? If an answer can
be provided that includes guidance that is applicable to a
variety of situations, that would be best.<br>
<br>
In this case the array is about 1500 watts, or about a C/15
rate, not uncommon for a better off-grid system in our sunny
region. <br>
<br>
Thank you,<br>
Allan<o:p></o:p></p>
-- <span style="font-size: 10pt;"><br>
</span> </div>
On 7/8/2012 9:40 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:67DF3088-C295-4FB1-B668-8599892A2006@starlightsolar.com"
type="cite">Hello Mick,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think your set-points for voltage are fine. The Rebulk is
of little importance for an unoccupied property as voltage
should be easily maintained.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The bad news: In a nut shell you have told the MX charger to
stop charging if the PV current drops below 45 amps or 0 to 60
minutes after reaching the absorb setting. I don't think you can
ever reach 100% SoC with this setup so the battery may have been
deficit charged every day.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><u>Absorb Time Limit, Min</u>:</div>
<div>With AGM batteries, this setting should be determined by
measuring <u>how much absorb time</u> it takes for the current
to the battery to drop below 0.5% of the banks rated capacity.
For example, a 1000 AH bank this would be 5 amps. If it takes 60
minutes to reach this point, use that number for "Min". By
leaving it at 0, the MX60 will choose the absorb time based on
the bulk/absorb charge timer which may not be enough at an
unoccupied property. Example, if the bulk time is only 30
minutes, the absorb time is 30 minutes unless the "Min" is set
higher.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><u>Absorb Time Limit, Max:</u></div>
<div>The factory default is 2 hours. This value needs to be at
least 10 minutes longer than the "Min" time set above. One hour
means that is the longest time the controller will stay in
absorb.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><u>Absorb End Amps (misc settings)</u></div>
<div>Here's the real culprit. By setting this at 45 amps, you have
told the controller to stop absorb charging 15 seconds after it
starts if your current is less than 45A. Obviously this will
leave the battery deficit charged unless the float current and
sun hours remaining can make up this deficit. Reset this to
zero, the factory default, and let the Min/Max settings control
the charge.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just a note on charging AGM's: My opinion is that the only
reliable way to properly charge an AGM battery is by monitoring
the current to the battery and adjusting the charge time
accordingly. For this reason, I recommend charge controllers
that have this function, like the Blue Sky Energy Solar Boost
IPN controllers. With this method, you can force the absorb
voltage to remain as long as necessary until the battery reaches
100% SoC.</div>
<div><br>
<div>
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style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);
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class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
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space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span
class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
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"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0,
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<div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Larry Crutcher</div>
<div>Starlight Solar Power Systems</div>
</div>
</span></span>
<div>(928) 342-9103</div>
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<div><u><br>
</u></div>
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</span></div>
</span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Jul 7, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
Greetings, All~<br>
<br>
My client's string of SunXtender two volt AGM's won't hold a
charge...after only two years! The prior AGM batteries also
turned to toast prematurely. There must be a better way, so
could we review the Outback charge setpoints? <br>
<br>
Side note: Delta-v from the highest 2v cell to the lowest
shows a gap of only .148v during a charge cycle so cell
imbalance is not the likely problem. I think they're all
working together equally bad. <br>
<br>
A small amount of dry powder--light green color resembling
verdegris finish on copper--can be seen around 30% of the +/-
posts, in an amount smaller than 1/8 teaspoon. From this sign,
I suspect that the cells have vented and dried out. The
property is vacant 90% of the time so I am mostly focused on
the MX60 solar charge controller as the culprit.<br>
<br>
This is an early vintage Outback controller, firmware version
5.11. Temperature compensation is in place; automatic EQ is
defeated. Bulk & absorption setpoints exactly match those
requested by Concorde/SunXtender: 28.8 volts bulk/absorption
& 26.4 volts Float. The controller does regulate at these
voltage points so it's technically "working"--just grinding up
batteries on a regular basis.<br>
<br>
The Concorde people do not furnish suggestions regarding
absorption time or "rebulking" so that may be the source of
trouble. Controller setpoints have the Absorption Time Limit
set for "0 minutes minimum & 1 hour maximum". The
controller is also set to "rebulk" the battery at a 23 volt
trigger and there's an inscrutable setpoint called "End"
that's set for 45 amps. I have a theory about the meaning of
that but I'll keep the noise level down...<br>
<br>
If I recall correctly, the Outback end of charge routine in
early days was to start a clock & see how long it takes to
move the battery to the bulk/absorption voltage then apply an
equal amount of time for an absorption charge before shifting
to float. Steve Higgins may confirm if that is indeed the
protocol for a version 5.11 controller but: has that method
now been changed in the newer version Flexmax controllers? It
seems those now have an absorption duration value that can be
changed so maybe that's what we need--a replacement controller
along with good information on the absorption duration and/or
float setpoints, etc. <br>
<br>
I see that some controllers can even be set to not Float at
all. Maybe that's better: run the charge then stop it all for
the rest of the day. OR: thinking outside the box here...what
about a controller that won't initiate charge cycle at all
unless the battery voltage crests down to a trigger point. All
I know for sure is that two sets of valuable batteries have
now been ruined so "normal" charge setpoints are not working
well in this situation.<br>
<br>
If some better electronics (such as blending in the Outback
capacity monitor gizmo) might help, I'm all ears. Next time
maybe I'll suggest flooded cells to the client instead of
AGM's, but the cells are in a crawlspace that gets freezing
cold at times. <br>
<br>
Thanks in advance for advice & suggestions. A second off
grid client has a similar setup so I need to hotfoot it out
there and tweak that (more recent) Outback controller to match
the suggested setpoint revisions...before bad things happen
again. <br>
<br>
Jolliness,<br>
<br clear="all">
Mick Abraham, Proprietor<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.abrahamsolar.com/"
target="_blank">www.abrahamsolar.com</a><br>
<br>
Voice: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:970-731-4675"
value="+19707314675" target="_blank">970-731-4675</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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