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Tom, et al,<br>
<br>
Well said.<br>
<br>
It's not just certification that is a business (and often a sleazy
and opportunistic motivated one at that), EDUCATION is, today, a
business. <br>
<br>
Why does the manufacturer often charge for instruction on how to
properly install their specific equipment? May I suggest $$$ and a
misconception of what a bad install costs in terms of lost good will
the end user could have provided that brand (and the trade in
general). In many occupations there is a requirement for continuing
education for continued certification. The involved, dedicated, and
responsible person is doing this anyway. The supply chain is
complicit in this misconception, too.<br>
<br>
You might also ask why NABCEP doesn't even _address_ solar hot air.
Would we be able to get that answer from the horse's mouth
first-hand?<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094</pre>
<br>
On 24-May-12 7:09 PM, Tom Duffy wrote:
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black">Certification
is just a business, whether it’s for computer Techs or Solar
Installers, and they seem to be entities unto themselves. I
have heard all the arguments for certs, but like you said
some folks don’t test well but are knowledgeable others test
well but are clueless as to practical applications.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black">Back
a decade or so ago I taught Computer Tech certification (A+)
at our local university. In one class that I taught I had 23
network admins (Employed as such) and managing large
networks. Only three tested and one passed. The point is all
were capable network admins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black">The
real question is… how does one prove their expertise?
Especially to the general public. I have seen some real
nightmarish off grid systems setup by NABCEP installers and
Non-NABCEP as well. It is a problem and though I don’t
believe in certification, I also don’t have an alternative
suggestion either. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#984806"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:black">Kind
Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#009900"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:black">Tom Duffy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#009900">Senior
Solar Design Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#984806"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#009900">Toll Free
888-895-8179<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#009900"><a
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:tom@thesolar.biz">tom@thesolar.biz</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#984806">For:
Customer Service and Accounting </span><span
style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
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tie sales </span><span style="font-family:"Arial
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#984806">Off Grid
sales </span><span style="font-family:"Arial Rounded
MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black">888-895-7765</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
Bold","sans-serif";color:#984806"> Other
Product Sales </span><span style="font-family:"Arial
Rounded MT Bold","sans-serif";color:black">888-895-9612</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial Rounded MT
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-family:"Arial
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<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dana<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 24, 2012 12:04 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] NABCEP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">NABCEP has been a
strangely quiet subject on this forum. FYI - I checked with
our honorable moderator prior to posting this.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">If we are attempting to
expand the field of “certified“ installer and designers why
is NABCEP run the way it is?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">Getting the NABCEP cert
and living in w.CO has been a virtual nightmare & living
where I do and having to travel 7 hours each way, stay in a
hotel etc, this is a joke. I may be in the minority but
point to make here. Beyond that I became a wrench because I
do not test well [avoided a 4 year degree] yet I can outline
a schematic for electrical or plumbing in my head and build
it the first time correctly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">The test schedule and
availability - NABCEP needs to open up to local proctoring,
libraries, schools, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">2 tests a Year?
Electricians can re- test 24 or 48 hours? later and use a
variety of resources. Why can we not?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">When an electrician
tests they get their results as they walk out of the test
room. Why do we have to wait 6 weeks? <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">The NEC book is the
only reference material at the test when is not doing a
trade about knowing your resources and utilizing them? From
what I understand any number of professions and trades get
to use several resource books. You would think we were going
to be secret agents or the like. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">I have done off grid
for 24 years. Most NABCEP folk who are GT only have not a
clue as to battery based design and should not be allowed to
do the same. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">I am "certified" and
probably very competent up to 50KW would be just fine but
100KW or 1MW? This is probably not a brilliant idea without
a backup coach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">Questions on 3 phase on
the test? I would ask my licensed master electrician yet we
are asked several questions on 3 phase. I have asked masters
and they have had to go look up the answer.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">I would suggest a basic
GT cert up to 50KW with a supplemental for >50kw and a
separate adder for off grid. Tests every 2 month or on a
scheduled basis with you local librarian<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">I fly my NABCEP cert in
the bathroom and upside down. It is in distress, stinks, and
needs help. The re-wrenches is strangely silent on this much
damaged product called certification.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">I see some major issues
and would like to start a discussion about how it is
managed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">I think it needs
rethinking.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">Thanks for considering
& your opinion?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">Dana Orzel - Great
Solar Works, Inc - E - <b><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">dana@solarwork.com</a></b>
- V <b>970.626.5253</b><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">F - 970.626.4140 C
- 970.209.4076 web - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.solarwork.com">www.solarwork.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Century
Gothic","sans-serif"">"Responsible
Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span
style="font-size:13.5pt;color:green">P </span></i></b><b><i><span
style="font-size:7.5pt;color:green">Please consider the
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style="color:#99CC00"><o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
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