<html><body><span style="font-family:Verdana; color:#000000; font-size:10pt;"><div>OK. I get you. See, here in Vt, we have a few hoops we need to wrangle to get grid tied. In addition to all the NEC stuff (690,705,250...), we also need to satisfy the utility company and a public service board (as well as the customer).. and it all needs to make sense. (You grey beards may want to double check me logic.. I have been known to be full of... beans).</div><div><br></div><div> So, by code you're gonna need a service rated disconnect. I usually land the grid on a 120/240V 100A breaker box.. I don't think the Flexware is "Service Rated" and I'm not so sure it's such a good idea land the grid in the Outback AC box unswitched anyway. you'll also need a meter can and a code compliant grounding system. I'm under the impression that when you connect to the grid, that first service entrance box becomes your new "main means of disconnect" which means it also becomes the new system / grounding point, so you may well need to rework the Outback AC box (because It and anything it feeds are now all subs). <span>You will also need to loose the X-240 if there is one. I'm assuming you're planning 120/240VAC install.<br></span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div><span> <span id="GD__CURSOR">So, you're gonna have a grid AC box anyway.</span></span> </div><div><br></div><div>Here in Vt, we get extra $$ for renewable energy, so we need to install a dedicated meter can just for Renewables (In addition to the regular meter can from the grid). So folks normally sell everything they make, and buy what they use (Because it's cheaper). </div><div><br></div><div>Here's what I do:</div><div><br></div><div>First off, all large Non essential loads get run into the grid box -- deicers, hot tubs, hot water finishing tank, pond aerators, outbuildings, the welder...<br></div><div><br></div><div>Then what I do is run two feeds from the grid entrance box to the Outback AC box. The first I call a Main House Feed. I launder this guy thru a xfer switch from the gen set and stab it onto the bypass side (Left) of the xfer switch in the Outback AC box (In place of the feeds from the AC IN buss). This becomes the new main house feed and is the new normal run mode. The second (Grid Tie) feed gets run to the 2nd (Smart) meter can and then on into the AC IN buss in the Outback. </div><div><br></div><div>Again, the logic here is to sell everything or bank power on the grid instead of limiting production by regulating solar input.. To some, I liken the grid to a huge unlimited Ah battery.</div><div><br></div><div> I would make dam sure to set the System charge rates to the battery manufacturer's specs. I also like to back the charge currents way back to like 8 amp -- effectively making them a trickle charger.. that way if/ when the battery does get in trouble, they're not so likely to go postal. you can periodically cycle them by using the AC Drop mode on the mate (In AC IN). As long as the system sees AC (the yellow light flashes) it will lock back on to the AC before it crashes out on low battery.</div><div><br></div><div> The other fly in the ointment is charging batteries from the gen set if the grid goes down for any length of time. Barring any dooms day scenario, if the solar has been keeping up, I wouldn't sweat it. I do have one install where we just use a stand alone charger. Another customer (Let's call them the dooms day people) just kept the old VFX setup and can switch back and forth at will. Of course they also have a sealed 4 year food supply, an 8000 gal under ground water storage supply and a private airstrip.</div><div><br></div><div>Good luck. db</div><div><br></div><div>Let the egg toss begin.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br>Dan Brown<br>Foxfire Energy Corp.<br>Renewable Energy Systems<br>(802)-483-2564<br><a href="http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com">www.Foxfire-Energy.com</a><br>NABCEP #092907-44</div><div><br><br></div>
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-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid to Grid-Connected -essential loads<br>
From: benn kilburn <<a href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca">benn@daystarsolar.ca</a>><br>
Date: Sat, May 05, 2012 3:36 pm<br>
To: Wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
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</style> <div dir="ltr">Dan, </div><div dir="ltr">I agree, the batteries are a major factor here and as usual much can get lost in translation when details are left out. My bad, I'll try to bridge the gap a bit...<div><br></div><div>What we have here is a complete up and running off-grid system; </div><div>-the batteries are Surrette 2YS31P (2V each x 24 = 48V system) ~one year old</div><div>-there are two FM80's and a FM60 with a combined 8435 W of PV </div><div>-currently there are two VFX3648's (series stack) and there are two GVFX3648's waiting to be swapped in when the grid connection happens.</div><div>-back-up 12kW gen</div><div><br></div><div>Welcoming neighbours into the area who are not as open to the limits and responsibilities of off-grid living, this system owner has agreed to help with the cost of bringing the grid into the area.</div><div><br></div><div> So working with the set-up we have, what i'm thinking (hoping) is that the system will continue to run off the batteries and the PV will continue to keep the batteries full and running all the loads and the inverters will be set to only "buy" from the grid when the PV is not able to maintain a predetermined battery voltage. Essentially the grid will become the "back-up generator", and the existing back-up gen will not be seeing any action unless there is no sun and the grid is down. </div><div>It appears that this is programmable via the HBX mode from the Mate. Am i missing any critical points here? </div><div><br></div><div>Currently the main distribution panelboard, which feeds everything (the house and shop loads) is supplied from the AC-Out bus in the Outback FW-AC, which is supplied from the VFXs output and when in by-pass mode, from the generator, and since the (battery) system was originally designed to supply all the loads I see no reason/purpose to dedicate certain loads to a separate "essential loads" panelboard, which is what i was getting at with my original post. </div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>benn</div><div><br><div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#002060" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-family:Tahoma;color:rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span class="ecxecxecxecxEC_Apple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important;color:rgb(0, 32, 96)"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. </font></span><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><a href="http://www.daystarsolar.ca">www.daystarsolar.ca</a></font></div><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </font></div><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><div style="text-indent:0px !important">Certified Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified</div><div style="text-indent:0px !important">Certificate # 0007S</div></font></div><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY</font></div></div></span></font></div></div><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">From: <a href="mailto:dan@foxfire-energy.com">dan@foxfire-energy.com</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>Date: Fri, 4 May 2012 18:23:33 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid to Grid-Connected -essential loads<br><br><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#000000;font-size:10pt"><div>IMHO, the batteries are the real skeleton in the closet here. Sooner or later they're gonna poop. at 2400 Ah you're likely running a multi string set up, so it's likely someone's number is already on the board. Even if you set the FX down to a trickle charge or use some kind of contactor to fake the FX into thinking the grid is really a gen set, sooner or later the batteries will fail. Better to design for it now.. Besides, Rather than regulating solar input to protect batteries, You're better off selling (Storing) power on the grid. Depending on the age of the batteries or the competence of the operator (Home Owner), I'd either swap out the FXs for a GVFX (and down size the batteries when they puke), or loose the current setup all together and go for a batteryless Grid Tie inverter. (and maybe keep the current setup as a whole house UPS.. until the batteries poop). Again, depending on the customer, you might milk these batteries by setting up individual strings on an isolation switch (like in the marine industry), at least this way you can referee. Good Luck. db<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>Dan Brown<br>Foxfire Energy Corp.<br>Renewable Energy Systems<br>(802)-483-2564<br><a href="http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com" target="_blank">www.Foxfire-Energy.com</a><br>NABCEP #092907-44</div><div><br><br></div> <blockquote id="ecxreplyBlockquote" style="border-left:2px solid blue;margin-left:8px;padding-left:8px;font-size:10pt;color:black;font-family:verdana"> <div id="ecxwmQuoteWrapper"> -------- Original Message --------<br> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-Grid to Grid-Connected -essential loads<br> From: benn kilburn <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca">benn@daystarsolar.ca</a>><br> Date: Fri, May 04, 2012 5:08 pm<br> To: Wrenches <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br> <br> <style>
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</style> <div dir="ltr"> Wrenches,<div><span class="ecxApple-style-span">I have an off-grid client who is going to be connecting to the grid. Since the system </span>(~9 kW of PV and ~2400 Ah battery) <span class="ecxApple-style-span">is already well suited for the loads, I am wondering about the necessity of an essential loads panelboard. I'm not sure if I see the need since the battery is already sized for all the existing loads.</span></div><div><span class="ecxApple-style-span"><br></span></div><div><span class="ecxApple-style-span">The intent is to continue running all the loads from the battery and have the (Outback) settings so that the grid is only used when the PV isn't able to maintain a particular battery voltage setting. </span></div><div><span class="ecxApple-style-span"><br></span></div><div>Comments, insights into this type of set-up?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>benn</div><div><div><br><div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#002060" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><span class="ecxApple-style-span" style="font-family:Tahoma;color:rgb(0, 0, 0)"><span class="ecxecxecxecxEC_Apple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important;color:rgb(0, 32, 96)"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. </font></span><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><a href="http://www.daystarsolar.ca" target="_blank">www.daystarsolar.ca</a></font></div><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </font></div><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><div style="text-indent:0px !important">Certified Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified</div><div style="text-indent:0px !important">Certificate # 0007S</div></font></div><div style="text-indent:0px !important"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" style="text-indent:0px !important" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY</font></div></div></span></font></div></div></div></div> </div> <hr>_______________________________________________<br> List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br> <br> List Address: <a target="_blank" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br> <br> Options & settings:<br> <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br> <br> List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br> <br> List rules & etiquette:<br> <a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br> <br> Check out participant bios:<br> <a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br> <br> </div> </blockquote></span> <br>_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> Options & settings: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a> List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a> List rules & etiquette: <a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a> Check out participant bios: <a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a></div></div></div> </div> </div> <hr>_______________________________________________<br>
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