<p>5 strings says it all! now would be a good opportunity to replace with higher capacity cells and fewer strings for long lasting performance......Kirpal</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Apr 3, 2012 7:21 AM, "All Solar, Inc." <<a href="mailto:allsolar@scswifi.net">allsolar@scswifi.net</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<u></u>
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" bgcolor="white" vlink="purple">
<div><font face="Arial">With 5 strings installed, I figured the charge rate
to be about 3.3% (of C20 rate) for 5 years or so. Actually since it
was installed in 2002, and now on its second set of batteries.
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">We added some PV and an MX60 a year ago, and now
this. I think he had heavily sulfated batteries which eventually
led to shorted cells. ?</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Jeremy</font> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px">
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a title="jason@fafcosolar.com" href="mailto:jason@fafcosolar.com" target="_blank">Jason
Szumlanski</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">RE-wrenches</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 02, 2012 1:43
PM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan
Batteries</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">There are a lot of forums and
circles where C/20 refers to the capacity divided by 20, or 5% of the battery
capacity. This may be the more informal interpretation of the term, but you
will find many examples where people consider C/20 to be 5% of the capacity
(wrong or right). For example, look at the most frequently accessed deep cycle
charging FAQ on the Internet: </span><a href="http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm" target="_blank">http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm</a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">To be clear perhaps we should
just use plain English and say “the recommended charging rate is 10-15% of the
capacity of the battery at the 20 hour discharge rate.”</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:12pt">Jason
Szumlanski</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Fafco Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:windowtext;FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';COLOR:windowtext;FONT-SIZE:10pt">
<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Allan Sindelar<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 02, 2012 1:46
PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt" class="MsoNormal">Wrenches,<br>I attended John
DeBoever's Friday afternoon presentation on battery technology and care at the
NABCEP Continuing Education conference this past weekend. It quickly became
clear to me that John seriously knows his batteries, at all levels: chemistry,
physics, RE use and care, etc. It was an advanced-level presentation, and I
learned a lot. <br><br>The first thing John told us was that English is not
his native language; he's a Belgian raised in South Africa (and more that I
didn't catch). He was bursting with knowledge and good information, but
occasionally we in his class would back him up to better explain a point.
<br><br>In short, I think he will be a real asset to the Wrenches list as a
manufacturer's representative. And occasionally there will be something
confusing, such as what just happened here. I too wondered about C20 versus
C/20. I appreciate that he quickly cleared up the confusion, and look forward
to learning quite a bit from his posts about battery issues.<br>Allan</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>Allan Sindelar</b><br><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt"><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com" target="_blank"><span style="COLOR:#000099">Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</span></a></span><br><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<br>
NABCEP
Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>New Mexico EE98J Journeyman
Electrician<br><b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>3201 Calle Marie<br>Santa Fe,
New Mexico 87507<br><b><a href="tel:505%20424-1112" value="+15054241112" target="_blank">505 424-1112</a></b><br><a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank">www.positiveenergysolar.com</a></span> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-RIGHT:722.25pt" class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>On 4/2/2012 11:00 AM, John DeBoever wrote: </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Jason, Wrenches,</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">C/20 means C over 20 hours
discharge rate = capacity @ the 20 hours discharge rate. C/20 often is
mentioned as C20, so the confusion here. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Max recommended is 10& to
15% of C20 of the battery bank.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">John </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Trojan Battery
Company</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:windowtext 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 02, 2012
12:53 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot
Trojan Batteries</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">There must be some confusion
here about the charging rate. C/20 refers to capacity divided by 20, so in the
case of a 325aH battery (capacity @ the 20 hour discharge rate) we’re talking
about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. I’m sure John is not referring to a
maximum rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but 10-15% of the 325aH
capacity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:12pt">Jason
Szumlanski</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Fafco Solar</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium none;BORDER-LEFT:medium none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0in;PADDING-LEFT:0in;PADDING-RIGHT:0in;BORDER-TOP:windowtext 1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John DeBoever<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14
PM<br><b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:allsolar@scswifi.net" target="_blank">allsolar@scswifi.net</a>;
RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan
Batteries</span></p></div></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Jeremy,
Wrenches,</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">165°F is definitely too
high and you should stop immediately any charge to avoid further major
problems. I recommend you contact our Trojan Tech Support for help at <a href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1%23top" target="_blank">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top</a>
</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Below are few perspectives
to help the diagnostic:</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.25in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman','serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">System issues: </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check
Charger setting: the C/20 rate mentioned is definitely too high and will
damage the battery. The maximum recommended current rate is 10-15% of C/20 for
a deep-cycle flooded lead acid battery. Other C/rates are possible but are
application specific and not typical.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check
Voltage settings: these are provided on Trojan datasheets, see here: <a href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html" target="_blank">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html</a>
</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check
Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC for every 10°F above 77°F (add 0.028 VPC
for every 10°F below 77°F or subtract 0.020VPC for every 10°F above 77°F. See
here: <a href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf</a>
</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check
Voltage sensor status and connection. Dedicated wiring is
recommended</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check
temperature sensor. It shall be well positioned, typically in the middle of
the battery bank at the warmest point.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check if air
circulation between the battery units. </span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Check if
adequate air ventilation of the battery room.</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.25in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Courier New'">o</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:'Times New Roman','serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:7pt">
</span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Battery issues:</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">C/20
charging rate is too high (see above)</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">How old are
the batteries? Ageing batteries will face micro-shorts that will decrease the
battery turnaround efficiency over time that translates in higher temperature
generation. Typically the battery temperature range is about 20<sup>o</sup>F
above ambient temperature, and typical min and max limit are -4°F to 113°F.
</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">See here:</span> <span style="COLOR:#1f497d"><a href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf</a>
</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">165°F is way too high and will damage the
units</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Maybe you
are facing one or more shorted units: check the voltage and it will quickly
indicate if a unit is shorted. Shorted units will generate heat and will
jeopardize the charging of other units. Remove shorted units and consult tech
support your charger supplier if possible to reconfigure of your battery bank
with fewer units, configured at a lower battery bank voltage, using same
voltage settings recommended by Trojan Battery Company. Typically 1 to 3
units less would be acceptable, depending the charger manufacturer
settings.</span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Maybe you
are facing sulfated batteries, resulting from low charging, thus resulting in
lower overall turnaround efficiency. This will heat some healthier units of
the battery bank, accelerating corrosion damages. The max temperature
acceptable being 113°F, please consult Trojan Tech Support: <a href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1%23top" target="_blank">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top</a></span></p>
<p style="MARGIN-LEFT:0.5in"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:Wingdings;COLOR:#1f497d">ü</span><span style="FONT-SIZE:7pt"> </span><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">Please deal
directly off-Wrenches list, with Trojan Tech Support for better fine tune
resolution: <a href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1%23top" target="_blank">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top</a></span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">I hope this
help,</span></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d"></span> </p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d">John</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">John F. DeBoever</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">Global Technical Director –
Renewable Energy</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE:10pt">Trojan Battery
Company</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:8pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">12380 Clark Street </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">Santa Fe Springs, CA
90670</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">Tel: <a href="tel:%2B1-562-236-3000" value="+15622363000" target="_blank">+1-562-236-3000</a> Ext.
3139</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="COLOR:#953735;FONT-SIZE:10pt">Cell:
<a href="tel:%2B1-845-514-7600" value="+18455147600" target="_blank">+1-845-514-7600</a> – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)</span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt">Skype:
john.f.deboever</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt" lang="FR">Fax:
<a href="tel:%2B1-562-236-3239" value="+15622363239" target="_blank">+1-562-236-3239</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jdeboever@trojanbattery.com" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt" lang="FR">jdeboever@trojanbattery.com</span></a></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.trojanbattery.com/" target="_blank"><span style="FONT-SIZE:9pt" lang="FR">www.trojanbattery.com</span></a></p>
<p><span style="COLOR:#1f497d" lang="FR"></span> </p>
<p>-----Original Message-----<br>From: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On Behalf Of <a href="mailto:allsolar@scswifi.net" target="_blank">allsolar@scswifi.net</a><br>Sent: Sunday,
April 01, 2012 7:20 PM<br>To: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>Subject:
[RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Wrenches,</p>
<p>Can anyone explain why an L16 bank would be at 165F at
rest. Over a C20 charge rate, but I have a feeling there might be an
internal short </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Jeremy</p>
<p>All Solar</p>
<p>Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and shorthand!</p>
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