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Wrenches,<br>
I attended John DeBoever's Friday afternoon presentation on battery
technology and care at the NABCEP Continuing Education conference
this past weekend. It quickly became clear to me that John seriously
knows his batteries, at all levels: chemistry, physics, RE use and
care, etc. It was an advanced-level presentation, and I learned a
lot. <br>
<br>
The first thing John told us was that English is not his native
language; he's a Belgian raised in South Africa (and more that I
didn't catch). He was bursting with knowledge and good information,
but occasionally we in his class would back him up to better explain
a point. <br>
<br>
In short, I think he will be a real asset to the Wrenches list as a
manufacturer's representative. And occasionally there will be
something confusing, such as what just happened here. I too wondered
about C20 versus C/20. I appreciate that he quickly cleared up the
confusion, and look forward to learning quite a bit from his posts
about battery issues.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
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<title></title>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
<small><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font
color="#000099" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a></small><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3201 Calle Marie<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></font>
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<br>
On 4/2/2012 11:00 AM, John DeBoever wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CC4E5D1C542D8C4C9CBEE800875F05357F8311E6@Trojmail1.trojanbattery.com"
type="cite">
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jason,
Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">C/20
means C over 20 hours discharge rate = capacity @ the 20
hours discharge rate. C/20 often is mentioned as C20, so the
confusion here.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Max
recommended is 10& to 15% of C20 of the battery bank.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Trojan
Battery Company<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 02, 2012 12:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">There
must be some confusion here about the charging rate. C/20
refers to capacity divided by 20, so in the case of a 325aH
battery (capacity @ the 20 hour discharge rate) we’re
talking about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. I’m sure John is
not referring to a maximum rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but
10-15% of the 325aH capacity.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 12pt; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jason Szumlanski</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fafco
Solar</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt
medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>John DeBoever<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:allsolar@scswifi.net">allsolar@scswifi.net</a>;
RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jeremy,
Wrenches,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">165°F
is definitely too high and you should stop immediately any
charge to avoid further major problems. I recommend you
contact our Trojan Tech Support for help at
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Below
are few perspectives to help the diagnostic:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"><span
style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">o</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">System issues: </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check Charger
setting: the C/20 rate mentioned is definitely too high and
will damage the battery. The maximum recommended current
rate is 10-15% of C/20 for a deep-cycle flooded lead acid
battery. Other C/rates are possible but are application
specific and not typical.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check Voltage
settings: these are provided on Trojan datasheets, see here:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check
Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC for every 10°F above
77°F (add 0.028 VPC for every 10°F below 77°F or subtract
0.020VPC for every 10°F above 77°F. See here:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf</a>
</span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check Voltage
sensor status and connection. Dedicated wiring is
recommended</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check
temperature sensor. It shall be well positioned, typically
in the middle of the battery bank at the warmest point.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check if air
circulation between the battery units.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Check if
adequate air ventilation of the battery room.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.25in;"><span
style="font-family: "Courier New"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">o</span><span style="font-size: 7pt; font-family:
"Times New Roman","serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Battery issues:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">C/20 charging
rate is too high (see above)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">How old are the
batteries? Ageing batteries will face micro-shorts that will
decrease the battery turnaround efficiency over time that
translates in higher temperature generation. Typically the
battery temperature range is about 20<sup>o</sup>F above
ambient temperature, and typical min and max limit are -4°F
to 113°F.
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">See here:</span>
<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf</a>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">165°F is way too high and
will damage the units</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Maybe you are
facing one or more shorted units: check the voltage and it
will quickly indicate if a unit is shorted. Shorted units
will generate heat and will jeopardize the charging of other
units. Remove shorted units and consult tech support your
charger supplier if possible to reconfigure of your battery
bank with fewer units, configured at a lower battery bank
voltage, using same voltage settings recommended by Trojan
Battery Company. Typically 1 to 3 units less would be
acceptable, depending the charger manufacturer settings.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Maybe you are
facing sulfated batteries, resulting from low charging, thus
resulting in lower overall turnaround efficiency. This will
heat some healthier units of the battery bank, accelerating
corrosion damages. The max temperature acceptable being
113°F, please consult Trojan Tech Support: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText" style="margin-left: 0.5in;"><span
style="font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">ü</span><span
style="font-size: 7pt; font-family: "Times New
Roman","serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">
</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Please deal
directly off-Wrenches list, with Trojan Tech Support for
better fine tune resolution:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top">http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top</a></span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I
hope this help,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">John</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">John F.
DeBoever</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Global
Technical Director – Renewable Energy</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Trojan
Battery Company</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 8pt;"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">12380 Clark
Street </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Santa Fe
Springs, CA 90670</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Tel:
+1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; color:
rgb(149, 55, 53);">Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time
zone: USA EST (GMT-5)</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;">Skype:
john.f.deboever</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 9pt;" lang="FR">Fax:
+1-562-236-3239</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jdeboever@trojanbattery.com"><span
style="font-size: 9pt;" lang="FR">jdeboever@trojanbattery.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.trojanbattery.com/"><span style="font-size:
9pt;" lang="FR">www.trojanbattery.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"
lang="FR"> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
On Behalf Of
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:allsolar@scswifi.net">allsolar@scswifi.net</a><br>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2012 7:20 PM<br>
To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Can anyone explain why an L16 bank would
be at 165F at rest. Over a C20 charge rate, but I have a
feeling there might be an internal short
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">All Solar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">Sent via BlackBerry. Sorry for typos and
shorthand!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText"> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoPlainText">List Address: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">
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