<font face="arial" size="4"><p style="margin:0;padding:0;">dang... this was from a movie i watched last week. i thought was still on my hard drive... and i cannot find it now...</p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">todd</p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;">On Thursday, March 15, 2012 1:46pm, "Steve Jefferson" <Steve.Jefferson@sma-america.com> said:<br /><br /></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Could you site a source for this?</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">I googled this and saw nothing like the 1 – 4 tons of coal on the first 5 pages of results.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 11.0pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Everything I read and the few power points (even one from 2000) stated that a single module will start creating more energy than used to make it in the 2-5 year range.</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">SMA America, LLC</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Steve Jefferson</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><em><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Sr. Technical Service Specialist, Sunny Family</span></em><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">6020 West Oaks Blvd, Suite 300</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Tel: +1 916 625 0870</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; color: #1f497d;">Email: steve.jefferson@sma-america.com</span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;"><strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></strong><span style="font-size: 10.0pt; font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";"> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <strong>On Behalf Of </strong>toddcory@finestplanet.com<br /><strong>Sent:</strong> Thursday, March 15, 2012 12:43 PM<br /><strong>To:</strong> RE-wrenches<br /><strong>Subject:</strong> [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk about pv with them.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">consuming less is always a win win.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">unfortunately (now that there is an incentive program) the new "solar experts" coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs is becoming the norm.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another "expert" who put in a massive system. </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 14.0pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">todd</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;mso-margin-top-alt: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 13.5pt; margin-left: 0in;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";">On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy" <<a href="mailto:ntrei@1scom.net">ntrei@1scom.net</a>> said:</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">William</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Attached is a Power Point slide I made that shows the 'energy payback' from PV.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">The Swiss</span><em><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></em><em><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">based</span></em><em><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></em><em><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme</span></em><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";"> takes</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">a very serious look at the</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">PV industry and its long term effects on the planet and</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">PV is already pretty</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">benign.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">While I don't know the logic</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">behind their calculations my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and produced for all industry world-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">next to nothing.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product which is</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">even a bigger</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">environmental blight than aluminum production-imo.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Besides, with the PV industries rush to</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">lower prices someone would have discovered a cheaper non-metallic replacement for aluminum</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">if it</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">is out there.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Having worked for many years</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">in the</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">composite/plastics industry I can say that the production of a substitute fiber re-enforced</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">compression molded</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">composite</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">still</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">never match the rigidity of aluminum.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could become workable but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices and margins are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a niche market any time soon unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur decides there is a market.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Jim Duncan</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">****</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">-----Original Message-----<br />From: <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of William Miller<br />Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM<br />To: RE-wrenches<br />Cc: 'RE-wrenches'<br />Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Marco:</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames? How about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking? What is the energy cost for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic? What is the energy cost of anodizing aluminum frames and racking?</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">There is a need here folks, that is not being filled. Entrepreneurs, where are you?</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">William Miller</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;padding:0;margin-bottom: 13.5pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"><br /><br /><br /><br /></span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">At 06:51 PM 3/14/2012, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>Living here in the middle of the big Blue Pacific Ocean where one is </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>never all that far from the ocean, I really question how well any metal </span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>is going to hold up over time, no matter what the warranty says.</span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">></span><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif";"> </span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>Even stainless rusts in these here parts.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>Installer beware and for sure don’t put yourselves at risk by </span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>providing anything more than the modco’s factory warranty.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">>marco</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">></span></p>
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<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">_______________________________________________</span></p>
<p style="margin:0;padding:0;margin: 0in; margin-bottom: .0001pt;"><span style="font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";">List sponsored by Home Power magazine</span></p>
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