<html>
<head>
<style><!--
.hmmessage P
{
margin:0px;
padding:0px
}
body.hmmessage
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-family:Tahoma
}
--></style></head>
<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'>
I was told a few days ago that a PV module will likely never produce the energy it took to make it.... I bit my lip, disagreed and wished i could recall in detail what i had read in one of the reports/articles i had read in the past on this topic. From what i can remember it is about 2-3 yrs.<div><br></div><div>Can someone please provide any resources you may know of on this issue?</div><div><br></div><div>Jim, i would love to see the power point you mention. I don't see an attachment.</div><div><br></div><div>Todd, could you please share where you read that info on the "1 to 4 tons of coal..." I fully agree with you about educating customers on energy efficiency before talking system size. ...and regarding your 'potential' customer, a couple categories come to mind for ones like that.... 'you can't argue with stupid', 'ignorance is bliss' (for that person). For that matter, i guess you could include those solar 'experts' in those categories as well!</div><div><br></div><div>And regarding plastic framed modules, what about hemp or corn based plastic? (further reducing dependance on oil) They are available and used for all kinds of things these days, why just check out the video on you tube of Ford's recent hemp plastic car! ;) </div><div>Add that to the corrosion resistance factor and perhaps that is enough for a niche market to catch on. I agree with William.</div><div><br></div><div>Anyway, i hope to see some articles on embedded energy in pv modules. </div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>benn</div><div><br><span class="ecxecxecxecxEC_Apple-style-span" style="color:rgb(0, 32, 96)"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy Inc.</font></span><div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">benn@daystarsolar.ca</font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY
</font></div><div><br></div></div><br><br><div><div id="SkyDrivePlaceholder"></div><hr id="stopSpelling">Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 12:42:45 -0700<br>From: toddcory@finestplanet.com<br>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br>Subject: [RE-wrenches] embedded energy in pv<br><br><font face="arial" size="4"><p style="padding:0">i recently read that it takes the equivalent energy of between 1 and 4 tons of coal to make a single pv module. this is why i insist my customers do their efficiency upgrades and learn how to be frugal/conserve before i will even talk about pv with them.</p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0">renewables powering waste is old paradigm thinking.</p>
<p style="padding:0"><span style="font-size:14pt">consuming less is always a win win.</span></p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"><span style="font-size:14pt">unfortunately </span><span style="font-size:14pt">(now that there is an incentive program) </span><span style="font-size:14pt">the new "solar experts" coming on the scene here make more $$ with bigger systems, so lipstick on pigs is becoming the norm.</span></p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"><span style="font-size:14pt">one customer wanted pv because her electric bill was over $600.00/month or 180 kWh/day!! i said there was something wrong with a power bill that high. maybe a duct on her heat pump had come loose and was blowing hot air into the attic and that should be investigated first with an energy audit. she hired another "expert" who put in a massive system. </span></p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"><span style="font-size:14pt">personally, i find it difficult to support this kind of resource use.</span></p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0">todd</p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0">On Thursday, March 15, 2012 6:26am, "Solarguy" <ntrei@1scom.net> said:<br><br></p>
<div id="ecxSafeStyles1331839643">
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">William</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Attached is</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> a Power Point slide</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> I made</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> t</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">hat</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> show</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">s</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> the 'energy payback'</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> from PV.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">The Swiss</span></span><span lang="en-us"><em> <span style="font-family:Calibri">based</span></em></span><span lang="en-us"><em> <span style="font-family:Calibri">IEA Photovoltaic Power Systems Programme</span></em></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> takes</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">a very</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> serious look at the</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">PV industry and its</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> long term</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> effects on the planet</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> and</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">PV is</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> already pretty</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">benign</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">While I don't know the logic</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">behind</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> their calculations my first thought is that with the volume of aluminum being extracted and produced for all industry world</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">-wide, the impact by the PV industry is probably</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">next to nothing</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> </span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">And using a plastic compound would mean using a crude oil based product</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> which is</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">even a bigger</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">environmental blight th</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">a</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">n aluminum production</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">-</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">imo</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> </span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Besides,</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> with</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> the PV industr</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">ie</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">s rush to</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">lower prices someone would have discovered a cheaper non-metallic repl</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">acement for aluminum</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">if</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> it</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">i</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">s out there.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">Having worked for</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> many</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> years</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">in</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> the</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">composite/</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">plastics industry I can say that the production of a substitute fiber</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> re-e</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">nforced</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">compression molded</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">composite</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">for PV frames would be more costly than aluminum and most likely</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">still</span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">never match the rig</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">id</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">ity</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> </span></span><span lang="en-us"> <span style="font-family:Calibri">of aluminum.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> </span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Now if the PV industry trended back to smaller modules a 'plastic' frame could become workable</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> but I don't see that moving out of R&D as long as prices</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> and margins</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> are so low. And I don't see a corrosion resistant module becoming a niche market any time soon</span></span><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri"> unless another "Silicon Energy" type entrepreneur decides there is a market.</span></span><span lang="en-us"> </span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"> </span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Jim Duncan</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">****</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"> </p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">-----Original Message-----<br> From: re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] On Behalf Of William Miller<br> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 9:13 PM<br> To: RE-wrenches<br> Cc: 'RE-wrenches'<br> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Installations in High Salt Spray Environments</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Marco:</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Are we in need of a new generation of PV modules with plastic frames? How about frame-less modules on recycled plastic racking? What is the energy cost for aluminum frame modules versus plastic or recycled plastic? What is the energy cost of anodizing aluminum frames and racking?</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">There is a need here folks, that is not being filled. Entrepreneurs, where are you?</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">William Miller</span></span></p>
<br><br><br><br><br>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">At 06:51 PM 3/14/2012, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>Living here in the middle of the big Blue Pacific Ocean where one is </span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>never all that far from the ocean, I really question how well any metal </span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>is going to hold up over time, no matter what the warranty says.</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">></span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>Even stainless rusts in these here parts.</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">></span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>Installer beware and for sure don’t put yourselves at risk by </span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>providing anything more than the modco’s factory warranty.</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">></span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">>marco</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">></span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">_______________________________________________</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">List sponsored by Home Power magazine</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">List Address:</span></span><span lang="en-us"> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</span></span></a></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Options & settings:</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</span></span></a></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">List-Archive:</span></span><span lang="en-us"> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</span></span></a></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">List rules & etiquette:</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</span></span></a></p>
<p style="padding:0"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">Check out participant bios:</span></span></p>
<p style="padding:0"><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"><span lang="en-us"><span style="font-family:Calibri">www.members.re-wrenches.org</span></span></a><span lang="en-us"><span style="color:#000000;font-family:Arial;font-size:10pt"> <<...>> </span></span></p>
</div></font><br><br><br>Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.<br><br>_______________________________________________
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org</div></div> </div></body>
</html>