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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As I understand it, the SI to SB connection works slightly differently than described below, and this is borne out by my experience, and a lot of re-reading the SMA literature;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Grid goes away – SI shifts to a voltage source for the SB<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>SI communicates with SB and tells it to operate in off-grid mode, widening its voltage window outside of the UL 1741 usual values<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Batteries full & no loads, SI shifts the frequency of its micro grid slightly and SB will eventually drop off line. This is why it also works with other manufacturers inverters because it does not rely on the SMA proprietary data comms to make this happen.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>SI continues to monitor its loads and the grid and during the night it will shift the freq of its micro grid slightly in the opposite direction to ‘make up’ for the period it used this to remove the SB, allowing things like clocks that use the 60Hz of the grid to regain time.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>SI detects return of grid – communicates with SB and returns it to normal UL 1741 mode<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Glenn Burt<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry Brown<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 04, 2012 11:13 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Jay,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We have installed a number of AC Coupled systems using Sunny Boys and Sunny Islands. One important consideration in this approach is to connect the inverters (Sunny Boys and Sunny Islands) together with a communication cable and Communication Cards and to upload new software into the Sunny Boys that let them know when the grid is down to operate in off grid mode. In this way when the grid is down the Sunny islands can limit the output of the Sunny Boys to meet the demand of the loads in the protected loads sub panel. Without the communication between the inverters, if the grid is down and the output of the Sunny Boys exceeds the demand of the loads in the protected load sub panel, then the Sunny Island will phase shift and the Sunny Boys will completely disconnect and then wait five minutes to try and connect again and will continue to do this until the output of the Sunny Boys does not exceed the demand of the loads. So it is all or nothing without communication between the inverters. This would seem to hold true as well for Sunny Islands mixed with any other Grid Tied inverters that are not of the SMA family and can not effectively talk to each other.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Larry<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Larry Brown<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Sun Mountain<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>NABCEP Certified PV Installer<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mar 4, 2012, at 10:25 AM, jay peltz wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>HI Darryl,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Is this a UL listed application for the Radian/Outback?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>And in following this thread about AC coupled:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Given the higher efficiency of the batteryless inverter and fantastic MPP, vs the relatively high losses with the 600v xantrex or standard CC/inverter losses, I would use the AC couple technique.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jay<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>peltz power<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mar 3, 2012, at 8:06 AM, Darryl Thayer wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>A few years back I made some year long measurements on an outback GVFX and a sunny boy for net energy to the grid I got only a few percentages not 10% I think one of the problems is the battery selection, these new batteries from Outback seem to have very low self discharge so very little energy should be expended to keep them charged. I am trying to close on a system where the distance from the solar array to the house is far, so I am planning to AC couple to a Radian to the grid, and I have been sucessful with AC coupleing on GVFXs and Outback assures me it will workas well with theRradian. This install is very sensitive to LOL (loss of load) and has the generator ready to go, but for the short outages that he has it is a hassel. (he has worn out one generator all ready, it was a construction grade genny) <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I am hoping if this system is a go to consider a Xantrex 600 volt charge controller, but it depends upon the customer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>thanks for the patence <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Darryl<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Drake <<a href="mailto:drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org">drake.chamberlin@redwoodalliance.org</a>><br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 2, 2012 9:31 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div id=yiv497211800><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='color:black'>I think the AC coupled approach would be the best. For the 10KW system, a pair of Sunny Islands fed by Sunny Boys would make an efficient system. Since there is no generator, the system should be fairly straight forward. <br><br>At 02:06 AM 3/2/2012, you wrote:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:13.5pt;background:white'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>i think mark was asking more about ac coupling to get away from the horrible inefficiencies of battery based, grid-tied inverters.<br><br> <br><br>as an experiment, i have been thinking about ac coupling one (or more) of my arrays on my outback system to gain 10% over having the gvfx do the selling.<br><br> <br><br>stc to ptc usually costs about 20%, then losing another 10% in the inverter is a real performance hit. i advise customers about phantom loads and conservation, when actually the battery based inverter is itself the big lump under the carpet!<br><br> <br><br>todd<br><br> <br><br> <br><br> <br><br> <br><br> <br><br>On Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:07pm, "Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]" <<a href="mailto:maverick@mavericksolar.com">maverick@mavericksolar.com</a>> said:<br><br>My two cents:<br>"battery-based inverter w/ PV on the DC side via charge controllers"<br>Simply replace the GT inverter with a Xantrex 600V Charge Controller plus the 48V Grid Interactive Inverter of your choice and added battery bank, etc.<br>Until the market is saturated with unneeded GT Inverters, you will be ok. ;-)<br>Try your best to provide enough battery for at least 24 hours of outage at 50% DOD. You may have add a Sub-Panel or Manual Transfer Switch.<br>Thanks<br>Maverick<br>Maverick Brown<br>BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ® # 091209-26<br>President & CEO<br><b>Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.<br></b>Billing: PO BOX 1229, Dripping Springs, TX 78620<br>Office: 512-919-4493<br>Fax: 512-607-6398<br>Cell: 512-460-9825<br>Corporate: <a href="http://www.mavericksolarenterprises.com/">http://www.mavericksolarenterprises.com/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"> mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b><a href="mailto:toddcory@finestplanet.com">toddcory@finestplanet.com</a><br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 01, 2012 5:46 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Cc:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tied, PV by AC or DC<br><br>excellent question mark... and one which has been on my mind as well, being most of my work is bbgt.<br><br> <br><br>todd<br><br> <br><br> <br><br> <br><br>On Thursday, March 1, 2012 11:37am, "Mark Frye" <<a href="mailto:markf@berkeleysolar.com">markf@berkeleysolar.com</a>> said:<br><br>Folks,<br><br>I have a residential grid-tied customer in a net metered utility with a favorable TOU rate.<br><br>They could use about 10 kW of PV to offset 100% of their usage.<br><br>But, they also complain about regular power outages in their neigborhood. They don't want a generator.<br><br>With reliable AC coupling now available, do we yet know which is the more advantagous architecture; grid-tied, battery-based inverter w/ PV on the DC side via charge controllers, or grid-tied, battery-based inverter w/ PV AC coupled via grid-tied, utility-based inverter?<br><br>Your thoughts? <br><br>Mark Frye <br>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems <br>303 Redbud Way <br>Nevada City, CA 95959 <br>(530) 401-8024 <br><a href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/" target="_blank">www.berkeleysolar.com</a> <br><br><br><br>Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.<br></span><span style='color:black'><br><br><br>Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.<br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a> <br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm" target="_blank">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/" target="_blank">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Drake Chamberlin <br>ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC<br>OH License 44810 <br>CO license 3773<br>NABCEP Certified PV</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>