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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Just thinking out loud here, but wondering
if it would pay to attach an insulated back to the panel for the winter months
to decrease the convection. I may need to set up a lab here and find out. . .<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Mark Dickson,</span></font><font
color=navy><span style='color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=ArialMT><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:ArialMT;color:navy'>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
™<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Oasis Montana
Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>877-627-4768
toll-free<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>406-777-4309
(0830 fax)</span></font><font size=2 color=navy><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><img width=64 height=59 id="_x0000_i1026"
src="cid:image001.jpg@01CCD46A.FB647B30"></span></font><b><font size=1
face=Arial><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold'>Mark
Dickson, Certified Solar PV Installer</span></font></b><b><font size=1
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:8.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy;font-weight:bold'><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><a href="http://www.oasismontana.com/"
title="blocked::http://www.oasismontana.com/
http://www.oasismontana.com/"><font
face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri'>http://www.oasismontana.com/</span></font></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><a href="http://www.grid-tie.com/"
title="blocked::http://www.grid-tie.com/
http://www.grid-tie.com/"><font
face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri'>http://www.grid-tie.com/</span></font></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'><a href="http://www.pvsolarpumps.com/"
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face=Calibri><span style='font-family:Calibri'>http://www.pvsolarpumps.com/</span></font></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:windowtext;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;
color:windowtext'> boB@midnitesolar.com [mailto:boB@midnitesolar.com] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Monday, January 16, 2012
3:43 PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Cc:</span></b> penobscotsolar@midmaine.com;
Mark Dickson<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches]
Shedding ice</span></font><font color=black><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>On 1/16/2012 1:34 PM, <a
href="mailto:penobscotsolar@midmaine.com">penobscotsolar@midmaine.com</a>
wrote: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>Impressive, Bob, but if one 125 watt panel took 1000 watts of power, what<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>is it going to take to melt my two 1600 watt arrays, pole mounted,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>(theoretically, of course, and at a 65 degree tilt)....? Just wondering as<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>it seems a lot of power to use in the winter for an off grid or solar<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>reliant system.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Daryl<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre>
<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><br>
<br>
Yes, it can take a lot of energy. How much and how long
depends on what<br>
the outside ambient temperature is. I think it will have a problem in
extreme<br>
cold because it depends on temperature rise of the module to get it above
freezing.<br>
If the sun comes out, that helps a lot so would help to reduce the energy in
melting.<br>
<br>
The melting we just now tried here, melted 2 X 200W modules
(series) in 45 minutes with 700 Watts<br>
of power into them (0.7 kW-hour) which is much better than my older experiment
and I believe<br>
being off the ground makes a big difference. The outside temperature
right now is only 31<br>
degrees F so kind of warm. The array is sitting at about 25 degree tilt
just above the metal<br>
roof on our building. It is still snowing here so no sun.<br>
<br>
Colder temperatures like the one in my animated gif will take longer but I am
sure that<br>
keeping them off the ground helps a lot. My 3 year old test was sticking
in the snow<br>
on the ground.<br>
<br>
There may be times though where it might be better to run some power into an
array that<br>
has a chance of melting while the generator has to run anyway. If it
didn't quite work then<br>
nothing much lost. Unless it has a chance of working fairly quickly
without too much energy<br>
from the batteries, you'd want to have a generator running. Todays
melting experiment<br>
was done off the batteries only.<br>
<br>
To have any gains, you would have to have some sun coming soon<br>
after it was melted off the array before it snowed again.<br>
<br>
This isn't a complete fix but something that may be put into the bag of tricks<br>
when it does work to an advantage. Here it is still snowing so it
wouldn't<br>
make any difference but is sure fun to watch !<br>
<br>
</span></font><font face="Courier New"><span style='font-family:"Courier New"'><br>
PS for </span></font><font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:navy'>Mark Dickson, I
don't know what it would take for your 50 watt module but much</span></font><br>
<font size=2 color=navy face="Comic Sans MS ;color:navy"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Comic Sans MS \;color\:navy";color:navy'>less
power than for the 400 watts of PV we just melted snow on in the same
conditions.</span></font><br>
<br>
boB<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>On 1/16/2012 11:39 AM, David Katz wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I believe the Midnite Classic has this feature built in. Check with<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>David Katz<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>It just snowed up here in <st1:City
w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Arlington</st1:place></st1:City>, Washington A.C. and we were just<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>starting to melt some snow<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>on a couple of modules on our roof just now with one of our charge<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>controllers here in the lab.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>This feature is not yet in the Classic, BUT, check out this experiment<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that I did about 3 years ago<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>in my front yard with an animated gif time lapse.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>One module is being powered and the other is not powered, just sitting<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>there for comparison.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>These are KC125s.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>The time involved here was about 3 hours and took about 1 kW-hour of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>energy but gives you<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>an idea of what may be done with this idea. One thing not in our favor<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>here is that the module<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>that is being powered is resting on the ground, in the snow, which would<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>significantly<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>hinder snow melting I would think rather than being properly mounted.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Oh what fun it is to melt some PV snow tonight !<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://fusion.midnitesolar.com/PVsnowMelt3.gif">http://fusion.midnitesolar.com/PVsnowMelt3.gif</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>boB<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre>
<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt' type=cite><pre wrap=""><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>*From*: Mark Dickson [<a
href="mailto:Mark@OasisMontana.com">mailto:Mark@OasisMontana.com</a>]<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>*Sent*: Monday, January 16, 2012 10:00 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>*To*: 'RE-wrenches' <a
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"><re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org></a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>*Subject*: [RE-wrenches] Shedding ice<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>I recall a conversation a while back about the possibility of<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>"reversing" the current in a solar module to increase the cell temp<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>enough to shed ice/rime. To follow-up, has anybody been successful at<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>this? I am guessing, if so, it would entail, removal of diodes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>increasing PV and battery capacity and some way to sense the ice at<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>the very least. . . It sounds good in theory, but I am skeptical as to<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>whether it will work in reality. . .<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Mark Dickson,<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ^(TM)<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Oasis Montana Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>List-Archive:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Check out participant bios:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre></blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><font size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>List Address: <a
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
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size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Options & settings:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>List-Archive: <a
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>List rules & etiquette:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Check out participant bios:<o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><a
href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre><pre><font
size=2 color=black face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></pre>
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style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>
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