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Wrenches,<br>
I very much appreciate this ongoing thread, thank you.<br>
<br>
This actually feels like one of those "damned if you do, damned if
you don't" scenarios. The system is six years old, poorly designed
and installed. Two SW5548s, most likely chosen in order to run a 2HP
conventional well pump for this manufactured home. Thirty-two L16s
in four strings, in two unvented battery boxes in an unheated shed
at 7800'. 1.66kW of PV plus an H40? wind generator, in an area not
known for great wind resource. The inverters either were never
programmed correctly or lost programming the first time a battery
was replaced, so the batteries never got above default 57.6V and
were never equalized. When the L16s started failing, the installer
instructed the owners to replace individual batteries, over and over
until 17 of the 32 had been replaced, one or two or four at a time.
With a continuing stream of failing cells, each time the well pump
came on the voltage dropped to "must start" and the generator came
on. With default programming, the inverters would charge to 57.6V
(if the batteries would get up there - not sure if they ever did),
then go through the two-hour absorption, then shut off and soon the
cycle would repeat.<br>
<br>
The installer put a Link-10 in the home, but without a prescaler, so
it couldn't work on a 48V system. So he tapped off of part of one
string. All monitor programming was at default settings, so the
system monitor had been useless to the homeowners since
installation. This was designed and installed by someone in business
doing wind and PV since the 1980s. His website claims he is "<font
face="Arial, Arial, Arial, Arial, Arial">the most experienced
contracting company in the Southwest specializing in
electric/electronic installation, service and repair of
independent, remote or utility integrated power generation power
supplies. We provide electrical engineering design, specializing
in on-site electrical power generation and related control
systems." <font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">This is some
mighty poor work.</font></font><br>
<br>
Our immediate "rescue solution" was to string together 16 of the
replacement batteries, program the inverters to corrective EQ, show
the homeowner how to change inverter settings, and replace the
Link-10 with a TriMetric with prescaler, guessing at 500 amp-hours.
At first this appeared to have failed - the battery voltage rose
quickly under charge and then fell just as quickly. But we later
learned that this actually worked, as they told us that after
running a long corrective EQ, the batteries came back and the
generator ran far less. But then the existing generator failed to
start; apparently just worn out, and they're in bad shape.<br>
<br>
We plan to add about 2-2.5kW of array, although we have no load
profile from them yet. The existing array is on two poles. <span
style="font-size: 12pt;">The (original) smaller array of 8 Sharp
80W 12V modules is shaded during winter by the larger array of 6
Sharp 170W modules during the mornings.</span> <span
style="font-size: 12pt;">The larger array is shaded by both a
juniper tree on winter mornings (until after 11 am) and by the
power equipment shed on winter afternoons (after 3 pm). The ground
is frozen now, so we have no easy way to either increase the array
of move the existing arrays out of where they shade each other.</span><br>
<p> They have two SW5548s, so need around 15kW at 7800' to run the
inverters at full capacity. The unknown is that we don't yet know
what size the new battery bank will be; my SWAG is about 1,000
a-hr in a single string of industrial cells. Together the SWs can
charge at 120A, so 1,000 A-hrs would be a good match. You are
correct that the generator run time will be greatly reduced once
the array is increased, the batteries replaced, and their loads
reduced through customer education. But they need a gennie right
away, as their PV and wind can't keep up and the system is
shutting down. I'm hesitant to recommend a generator of less than
industrial quality, given their experience to date with two
residential units. And any good generator has a 4-6 week lead
time. <br>
</p>
<p>What would you do in this situation?<br>
Allan<br>
</p>
<p>P.S. Chris Mason, your website doesn't jive...I went to
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.cometsystems.co">www.cometsystems.co</a> and got a site that said "Comet Systems Ltd.
is a Certified Reseller for Xorcom PBX products and Ruckus
Wireless." Doesn't appear to have anything to do with either PV or
generators. Can you enlighten us?<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-signature">
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charset=ISO-8859-1">
<title></title>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
<small><a href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"><font
color="#000099" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><u>Allan@positiveenergysolar.com</u></font></a></small><font
face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt;">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
Installer<br>
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional<br>
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician<br>
<b>Positive Energy, Inc.</b><br>
3201 Calle Marie<br>
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507<br>
<b>505 424-1112</b><br>
<a href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target="_blank"><u>www.positiveenergysolar.com</u></a><o:p></o:p></span></font>
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<br>
On 1/16/2012 9:03 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:039c01ccd468$5861e640$0925b2c0$@com"
type="cite">
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<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Chris,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">It would be very helpful if you quote “run hours”
rather than “years”. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">For example we have seen:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt
"Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Inexpensive small generators (generally not worth
rebuilding) 300 to 500 hours. These are gasoline models of
various brands and Generac LP gas models. 3kW to 10kW in
size typically.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt
"Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Honda gasoline generators 2,500 hours and then
rebuild. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph" style="text-indent: -0.25in;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Symbol; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><span style="">·<span style="font: 7pt
"Times New Roman";"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">10kW Kohler water cooled diesel gen set still
operating within specs at 9,600 hours (rebuilt after 5,500
hrs). This has been in service for 16 years, the first 4
years without inverter/battery system, and another 6 years
before the client had us add a PV array to the system. Since
adding the PV array the generator has run 200 hours per
year.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">All are in off-grid service and loaded at 65% MAX
continuous (see some surges higher than 65%, typically run
at 60%, or below, of rated power).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">David Palumbo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Independent Power LLC <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">462 Solar Way Drive<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Hyde Park, VT 05655<b><o:p></o:p></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: "Calibri","sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.independentpowerllc.com">www.independentpowerllc.com</a> <o:p></o:p></span></i></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">NABCEP Certified PV Installer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Vermont Solar Partner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">24 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"Calibri","sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style="border-right: medium none; border-width: 1pt medium
medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181,
196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding:
3pt 0in 0in;">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt;
font-family: "Tahoma","sans-serif";">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Comet Systems<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, January 16, 2012 10:21 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Howie@catamountsolar.com">Howie@catamountsolar.com</a>; RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Request for Gennie
Recommendation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Generac QT and commercial units do not
come with an ATS, you can buy just the bare machine or have a
complete solution designed for your load.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The Generac residential machines are
good machines, as long as you understand the intended use.
We install lots of them. They are only designed to be used
occasionally, for residential backup. We get customers who
want to run their business all day on a 10KW residential
generator and are disappointed that the generator won't
last ten years. They are a cheap, lightweight and cost
effective solution for people who get occasional outages.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If your customer has worn out two
generators already, then (s)he needs to pay for a
commercial level product. A 22KW QT is not that expensive
and will last ten years at a substantial load factor. If
you give me more information on the location, load factor
and loading, I can have engineering recommend a solution
for you.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">-- <br>
Chris Mason<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">President, Comet Systems Ltd<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:masonc@cometsystems.co" target="_blank">masonc@cometsystems.co</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cometsystems.co" target="_blank">www.cometsystems.co</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Cell: 264.235.5670<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Int: +1305.767.2094<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Skype: netconcepts<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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