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Fantastic Info everyone, I think I've got a full grasp on this topic
now, from using the correct coefficient to the correct weather data,
to the adders for installation type, and a nice link to the
applicable data without spending $180 for the ASHRAE book. <br>
<br>
I'm guessing the 2% number is 2% of the time year round 24/7, not
2% of the time the sun is shining, so losses could be higher than 2%
of production? Sorry to keep asking questions, but I know my class
will probably ask the same thing.<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
On 12/1/2011 2:57 PM, Gary Willett wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4ED7F85F.6050202@icarussolarservices.com"
type="cite">
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http-equiv="Content-Type">
<font size="+1">RAY:<br>
<br>
This "Solar Reference Guide Map" web site is also linked to on
the SolarABCs site and provides the ASHRAE 0.4% & 2% high
temperatures, as well as the PV module max temp based on
distance above the roof (0.5, 3.5, and 12").<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/expedited-permit/map/index.html">http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/expedited-permit/map/index.html</a><br>
<br>
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mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri">Regards<span class="GramE">,</span><br>
<br>
Gary Willett, PE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
On 12/1/2011 14:56, Gary Willett wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4ED7E9EC.9060108@icarussolarservices.com"
type="cite">
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http-equiv="Content-Type">
<font size="+1">Ray: <br>
<br>
Look at Appendix F in the Expedited Permit Process for PV
Systems - A Standardized Process for the Review of Small-Scale
PV Systems Prepared by Bill Brooks, P.E. Brooks Engineering<br>
<br>
This document provides the ASHRE temperatures for a lot of
locations around the USA.<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/expedited-permit/pdfs/Expermitprocess.pdf">http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/expedited-permit/pdfs/Expermitprocess.pdf</a><br>
<br>
<br>
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Gary Willett, PE<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<br>
On 12/1/2011 14:48, Ray Walters wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4ED7E81F.5000608@solarray.com" type="cite">That's
more detailed info, but I still am wondering what ambient temp
to apply (which AHSRAE #) with the temp adder. Daryl
suggested using a 2% high temp. Also, where are you all
getting your weather data? I found the NEC suggested ASHRAE
manual to be close to $200. That's a bit much just to get a
couple of numbers for our design. <br>
It seems this calculation of low voltage is far from being
entirely codified, and I'm trying to standardize it somewhat
for my PV class. Non of the design manuals I have currently
are even close to this level of complexity, yet this is
obviously an important calculation. Should I suggest that my
students just use the inverter manufacturers' online tools,
and forget about trying to run this voltage calc themselves? <br>
<br>
Thanks, <br>
<br>
Ray <br>
<br>
On 12/1/2011 6:30 AM, Dave Click wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">At an SMA training last year they
recommended the following temperature adders: <br>
<br>
Open field: +22°C <br>
Rooftop, lots of ventilation: +28°C <br>
Rooftop, some ventilation: +29°C <br>
Rooftop, little ventilation: +32°C <br>
Rooftop BIPV, no ventilation: +43°C <br>
Façade, some ventilation: +35°C <br>
Façade, little ventilation: +39°C <br>
Façade BIPV, no ventilation: +55°C <br>
<br>
For your Sanyo project, I'd agree that the pole mount would
be a good fit and +25C would seem to be OK. As you know, the
301VDC VMP on an inverter with a 300V+ tracking window
wouldn't work very well during the summers for very long. My
own rooftop system has a design VMP of around 294 at 70C
module temperature and I've seen it a bit lower than that on
a sunny day-- I think it's because in irradiances below
1000Wm/2, the modules can still get plenty hot but the lower
irradiance doesn't bring the VMP up to 100%. So all told,
maybe plan for an array minimum of: <br>
<br>
Inverter Tracking Minimum <br>
/0.85 (degradation and voltage tolerance) <br>
/0.95 (effect I just described) <br>
/0.825 (60C operating temp) <br>
= minimum string VMP at STC <br>
<br>
(similar to what Bill said) <br>
<br>
On 2011/11/30 11:04, Kirk Herander wrote: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">Thanks for all the good response.
Speaking of monkey wrenches, these are <br>
Sanyo HIT Double panels, mounted on a rack which is 5 ½
feet above the <br>
roof surface. They will absorb reflected light on the
backside, so I <br>
assume the cells will operate at a higher temp. But they
are elevated <br>
enough to simulate a pole-mount, thus lowering operating
cell temp. So <br>
what operating temp to use? If I use 25 C as the operating
temp, the low <br>
voltage calc comes out to 301 vdc (inverter min is 300 –
using SMA <br>
US8000). If I use 15 C the calc is 308 vdc. This is for a
6 panel <br>
string. Unfortunately I really don’t want to use 7 panel
strings due to <br>
the layout. If I used a US7000 it would work since min vdc
in is 250. <br>
However the inverters are part of a SunnyTower and I can’t
swap a 7000 <br>
for an 8000 without voiding the Tower UL listing. <br>
<br>
Kirk Herander <br>
<br>
VT Solar, LLC <br>
<br>
dba Vermont Solar Engineering <br>
<br>
NABCEP^TM Certified installer Charter Member <br>
<br>
NYSERDA-eligible Installer <br>
<br>
VT RE Incentive Program Partner <br>
<br>
*From:*re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org <br>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]
*On Behalf Of <br>
*boB@midnitesolar.com <br>
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:03 AM <br>
*To:* RE-wrenches <br>
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] calculating low string
voltage <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If you really want to throw a monkey wrench into the mix,
bring up <br>
partial shading... <br>
<br>
Or, maybe that's just not allowed in that debate ?? Just a
thought. <br>
<br>
boB <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/29/2011 8:39 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote: <br>
<br>
Kirk, <br>
<br>
You've got some good feedback on this from Ray and Bill.
I'll try to add <br>
a little more. Most module datasheets show a normal
operating cell <br>
temperature, NOCT, value that's typically 47.5°C. That's
20°C ambient <br>
temperature, 800 W/sq m, and calm wind and nothing
blocking the airflow <br>
on the back of the module. That 27.5°C temperature rise
should be pretty <br>
close to the temperature rise that occurs for a pole-top
mount. It's <br>
common to see people use 25°C for modules on a pole and
30°C or 35°C on <br>
a roof and there are data that support these "typical"
values. With 1000 <br>
W/sq irradiance, the temperature rise can obviously be
more too. Between <br>
the intensity of the sun, the direction of the sun, the
color of the <br>
roof, the spacing off the roof, and the wind speed there
is a lot that <br>
is different from one system to the next or even one day
to the next. <br>
<br>
Most PV module spec sheets don't give you a temperature
coefficient for <br>
Vmp. I've seen people use the the Voc coefficient, usually
expressed as <br>
a percentage, for both Voc and Vmp. Big mistake. Data from
NREL <br>
indicates as Bill said, the temperature coefficient for
Vmp is higher <br>
than that the temperature coefficient for Voc. That's
particularly true <br>
when the coefficient is expressed as a percentage per °C.
Since there <br>
are very few manufacturer's that give both temperature
coefficients, <br>
I'll use a value from an old Evergreen module for an
example. The <br>
Evergreen ES-195 datasheet shows Voc = 30.5 volts with a
coefficient of <br>
-0.34%/°C and Vmp = 27.1 volts with a coefficient of
-0.47%/°C. Since <br>
one shouldn't add volts and percents, I'll put the
temperature <br>
coefficients in volts/°C: Voc = 30.5 V - 0.10 V/°C and Vmp
= 27.1 V - <br>
0.13V/°C. So Vmp is moving faster than Voc, but not a lot
faster. That's <br>
generically true for c-Si or poly-Si. <br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg <br>
<br>
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. <br>
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<br>
t: 541-568-4882 <br>
<br>
<br>
On 11/29/2011 11:48 AM, Kirk Herander wrote: <br>
<br>
I am in debate with a PE over calculation of low voltage
of a series <br>
string on a hot day. He insists that an arbitrary high
cell temp is <br>
factored in, not just ambient temperature. Could someone
please give an <br>
accepted formula for this calculation? Thanks. I cannot
find a clear <br>
reference to low voltage calculation on a hot day (but
every reference <br>
material is clear on how to calculate high voltage on a
cold day). <br>
<br>
Kirk Herander <br>
<br>
VT Solar, LLC <br>
<br>
dba Vermont Solar Engineering <br>
<br>
NABCEP^TM Certified installer Charter Member <br>
<br>
NYSERDA-eligible Installer <br>
<br>
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<br>
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