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I completely agree with Larry, Trimetrics are not an option. You're
learning the hard way why (and why most grid tie solar companies
stay away from off grid). Yes, the meter helps the customer better
understand the system, but more importantly it saves you needless
trips to look for what is usually a load side (customer) issue. The
meter pays for itself in one service call. Trouble shooting over the
phone while they look at the Trimetric is a joy for both of you.
When you quote the system, you don't let the customer decide whether
or not they ground or use breakers, or get enough modules and
batteries for their loads, the meter is the same.<br>
<br>
I do use a cheaper meter on smaller systems (under 8 golf cart
batteries). I used to use the SCI mark 22, but since it was
discontinued, I've had good luck with the new Midnite battery meter
($59). It is not enough info for a larger system, though, as it
doesn't have a shunt to track loads. As soon as you're looking at
expensive batteries, a Trimetric will also pay for itself in
improved maintenance of those batteries.<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
On 11/16/2011 10:02 AM, Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power
Systems wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:03C35C77-96B0-4A20-90A5-8FE3162BF176@starlightsolar.com"
type="cite">We are only on your back until you to do the advisable
thing: Sell them a battery capacity monitor. It is a hard fact
that NO off grid, battery based power system should be without a
battery capacity monitor. They are cheap (only $150!) and not an
option. Apparently, it is also hard learned fact. ;-)
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse:
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<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>Larry Crutcher</div>
<div>Starlight Solar Power Systems</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Nov 16, 2011, at 12:20 AM, Ron Young wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Hi Larry, no amp
hour meter installed yet as the customer is penny
pinching. We're trying to solve the problem first and I've
been out there twice, once to do general diagnostics and
check all connections, try to load test the batteries, and
so on; the second time I 'dropped in' to try a different
load test on the batteries to see if I could replicate the
problem <u>and</u> to resolve some other problems with a
Whisper controller that had given up the ghost when
disconnected & re-connected to the batteries (all
precautions taken). It's a seven hour round trip and with
time spent on the job makes for an expensive service call.
I only charged for one call and I have to go back at least
once more. So customer wanted to save some money on the
installation of the TriMetric until the spring... sorry
for the long winded reply. I know, it's false economy. So
I'm thinking I'll just put the meter in and tell them to
pay me when they feel like it. It'll help solve the
problem and get some of the Wrenches off my back ... ;-)
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Young</div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>On 2011-11-13, at 8:26 AM, <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>>
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:larry@starlightsolar.com">larry@starlightsolar.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span style="font-family:Verdana;
color:#000000; font-size:10pt;">
<div>Ron, </div>
<div>I stick by my evaluation as seen here: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/msg10694.html">http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/msg10694.html</a><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>The #1 reason for my opinion is that you
can NOT drive up voltage on a healthy bank <u>that
size</u> in just 5 minutes. It is impossible
with a 2500 watt generator. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here is the pertinent part from my post:</div>
<divre>You mentioned that the the battery drops
to 24.5 in the early AM without any heavy
loads on. For the 4KS25 battery this equates
to about 800AH at the 72 hour rate. Then you
said that the customer ran a 2500 watt
generator for 5 minutes and drove the voltage
up to 29 volts. Here's the Ah-Ha moment: That
is EXACTLY the behavior of a heavily sulfated
battery bank. A fast rise in voltage indicates
sulfation. It is impossible for that tiny
generator, or any charge source they own for
that matter, to replace the hundreds of AH it
would take to drive a healthy battery up to
the absorb voltage of 29 volts. The bank is
about 45,000 watt hours (72h rate). There
would have to be over 20,000 Wh removed to be
at that voltage. How many Wh's are replaced in
5 minutes by a 2500 watt genny? I'm sure you
are getting the picture. <br>
<br>
Also, why have you not installed a battery
monitor yet? It will give you "eyes" into the
battery and spare countless hours of time
diagnosing the problem.<br>
<br>
Larry<br>
<div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
</divre></span></div>
<blockquote id="replyBlockquote" webmail="1"
style="border-left: 2px solid blue; margin-left:
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color:black; font-family:verdana;">
<div id="wmQuoteWrapper">
-------- Original Message --------<br>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] intermittent battery
problem; ...Battery<br>
Sulfation<br>
From: Ron Young <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:solareagle@solareagle.com">solareagle@solareagle.com</a>><br>
Date: Sat, November 12, 2011 9:57 pm<br>
To: RE-wrenches <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
<br>
Folks, this one really has me puzzled. The
client has done regular two hour EQ's, at least
once a month. When did a site visit and I topped
up the electrolyte (they'd been starving the
batteries for water but always just above the
plates) the problem seemed to go away. They were
satisfied that the problem was solved but I
wasn't and I told them what I had been hearing
from this group - essentially that the batteries
needed a deep EQ, discharge, recharge and EQ
again two or three times to scrub the sulphates.
They declined until just a few days ago when
they said the rapid voltage drop was back.
Here's a quote:
<div><br>
<div>
<div><i>We had another rapid voltage loss
this morning ---it was 25.2 when we got
up and it dropped rapidly to 22.8. We
turned on the generator and charged the
batteries until our display showed 30.2
for awhile with the generator running.
We turned off the generator and the
voltage settled at about 26.4. We
turned off all loads and wind and solar.</i></div>
<div><i> </i></div>
<div><i>At 9.15 our batteries were at 26.4</i></div>
<div><i>At 9:16 we turned on an 8W light
bulb, a1600W hair dryer, and a 1.5HP
(120V 5.75A) shop vac</i></div>
<div><i>The display showed a load of 1.9kw</i></div>
<div><i>At 9:40 the inverter shut
down---display showed batteries at 18.4</i></div>
<div><i>By 9.47 the display showed the
batteries at 25.2----the solar and wind
were still shut down.</i></div>
<div><i>We turned everything back on (a
light, Sunfrost RF16, phone) and all
seems to be normal.</i></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They agreed to do the EQ process but
only have a 3kw generator so we started
with 8 hours with the EQ voltage set for
32v (24v system). They completed that
yesterday and here's what resulted:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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class="gmail_quote">
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class="gmail_quote"
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<div
style="word-wrap:
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><i>Before
starting EQ
the batteries
were at 25.8,
hydrometer
reading 1283
with temp.
correction</i></div>
<div><i>Began
EQ
32.6 v
<span
class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Buying 1.5 kw</i></div>
<div><i>Hour 1
32.4 v
1283 with
temp.
correction
Buying 1.4</i></div>
<div><i>Hour 2
32.4 v
1285 with
temp.
correction
Buying 1.5</i></div>
<div><i>Hour 3
32.2 v
<span
class="Apple-tab-span"
style="white-space:pre"> </span>Buying 1.7</i></div>
<div><i>Hour 4
32.2 v
1290 with
temp
correction
Buying 1.8</i></div>
<div><i>HOur 5
32.0 v
1290 with
temp
correction
Buying 1.8 </i></div>
<div><i>Hour 6
32.0 v
<span
class="Apple-tab-span"
style="white-space:pre"> </span>Buying 1.9 </i></div>
<div><i>Hour 7
31.8 v
1292 with
temp correcton
Buying
1.9</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">
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<div style="word-wrap: break-word; ">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div
class="gmail_quote">
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
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<div
style="word-wrap:
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<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div><i>Hour 8
complete---turned
off Gen and
turned on
loads
---Batteries
dropped to
25.4 within 30
minutes and
stayed there
until this
morning---fridge
was running,
telephone,
internet, wool
carding
machine,
lights. This
morning
hydrometer
reading was
at 1290.</i></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
style="border-left: blue 2px solid;
margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px;"></blockquote>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Then today I just got this email:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><i>Just experienced another rapid
voltage drop. As soon as the voltage
hits 24.8 the voltage drops like a
rock if we don't have any input (no
solar or wind).</i></div>
<div><i><br>
</i></div>
<div>This is not what I expected after a
lengthy EQ. I'm getting them to do
another one tomorrow after a discharge
cycle and charge but I'm really
beginning to think we have something
else going on here, something
electrical, not chemical. The rapid
voltage drop is puzzling. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To review, it's an Outback 3524 on an
Epanel, Whisper 100 & controller, 6
4KS 25 Surrette batteries in 24v
configuration - 4.5 years old, .7kw
solar. I know the charging end is
undersized but they have been
compensating with the generator and they
get lots of wind in the fall, winter,
spring.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any more thoughts on this anyone?</div>
<div>
<div style="margin-top: 0px;
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Best Regards,</font></div>
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Products - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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<div>On 2011-10-24, at 6:50 AM, Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"
style="border-left: blue 2px solid;
margin-left: 8px; padding-left: 8px;">
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;
">Hi Ron,
<div>Accurate SG readings are not
simple. Was temperature compensation
properly employed? Have they been
keeping a log book to identify
changes? How accurate is the
hydrometer? How skilled is the
person taking the reading? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Most of the Battery Wrench
responses suggest equalization but I
don't see from any of your posts
that this has been done yet. I
suggest this to be the next step and
I recommend that you carefully watch
voltage and current. This will tell
you a lot. I use a Fluke ScopeMeter
in the TrendPlot mode and track
voltage and current over time. It
provides a good visual
understanding.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In case others are using this
forum to glean information, attached
is a chart for illustration of the
charge cycle. You should see a
constant, somewhat linear rise in
voltage until the constant voltage
setting is reached. If you see a
sudden rise: suspect sulfation. If
you see a quick reduction in
current: suspect sulfation. The
current should drop to about 8-10
amps at the constant voltage towards
the end of charge cycle. The health
and DoD will determine the time this
takes, expect many hours. Begin
equalization.</div>
<div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span"
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<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</span><span><3s-chart.gif></span><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</span><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<div>
<div>A couple other points: Is the
MX absorb voltage at 29.6V? Did
you program the MX controller
for an extended absorb time
(advanced menu, absorb time
limits)? The default setting is
poor for large batteries. I use
90 minutes minimum and 4 hours
max. This can greatly reduce the
possibility of undercharging the
battery but it may use more
water. The timer (ChgT) will
determine how long it stays in
absorb each day.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div><span
class="Apple-style-span"
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<div style="word-wrap:
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space;
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after-white-space; ">
<div>Larry Crutcher</div>
<div>Starlight Solar
Power Systems</div>
</div>
</span></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Oct 24, 2011, at 12:49 AM,
Ron Young wrote:</div>
<br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"
style="border-left: blue 2px
solid; margin-left: 8px;
padding-left: 8px;">
<div style="word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode:
space; -webkit-line-break:
after-white-space; ">Hi Larry,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I immediately assumed
sulphated battery when I
heard the customers
description a couple of
weeks ago but the hydrometer
readings didn't jive. Any
sulphated battery I've
encountered, and I defer to
your greater experience, has
always revealed itself with
a simple S.G. test and these
batteries were reading above
1.265. I then thought the
possibility of a defective
hydrometer and had them test
with another but we just got
confirmation of the same
thing. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The weird drop in voltage
also isn't explained by your
description. Why would this
just happen without loads or
charging present (except
maybe the DC Sunfrost load)
at the same predictable time
at 4 a.m. The fact that when
the generator was turned on
and sent a surge of current
into the system and the
problem went away made the
detective in me think there
had to be another
explanation. The bank was at
rest for several hours
through the night and the
voltage dropout was cured by
a brief application of
charge current. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When I arrived on site my
discovery that the client
was under watering the
batteries and this chronic
condition resulted in a very
rich electrolyte, reading
well above 1.265 - into the
1.280 range made me think
that was the problem and it
seems to have gone away now
that the electrolyte level
was raised and the batteries
given a good charge. But it
still nags at me that
something else is lurking in
the shadows. Your
description of the sulphate
converting to a crystalline
form has me worried because
if this is the case this
expensive battery bank is in
danger. I would have to camp
out at the site and monitor
the charging over a day or
so. I'm going to forward
some of your comments and
those of others that have
generously offered
suggestions and we'll see if
I can convince the client
who now believes everything
is A-Ok.</div>
<div><font
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
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