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Geez, I got that file on a model specific google search. It has a
picture of a 4000 series flooded cell to the side, no other
labeling, and it matched my cross check in the AEE catalog (1000
cycles at 50% DOD). I can't seem to get to that page within the
website.....<br>
The chart you sent is labeled series 4000, and is labeled 1280
cycles @50% DOD (very definitive, very different). Did both myself
and AEE indeed use the wrong data?(I see the AGM tag) I have another
s460 spec sheet claiming 1300 cycle 10 year life with no DOD
mentioned.....<br>
Its like shopping for tires or a mattress, you never know what to
believe, other than real experience sometimes. I had a horrible time
for instance finding cycle data for Deka, and I'm still not sure if
what they sent is right (that Deka = Trojan) I had conflicting
charts and numbers from Trojan too.....<br>
Be nice to have an independent test facility and publish some trust
worthy comparison data on a level playing field. I based my Rolls
info on almost a decade of literature collected from them, not just
that one chart.<br>
<br>
Awaiting clarification from Rolls, sorry if I used the wrong data<br>
<br>
Ray Walters<br>
<br>
<br>
On 9/16/2011 10:57 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4E7428A2.5010708@positiveenergysolar.com"
type="cite">
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Ray,<br>
You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try <a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable">http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable</a>.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
Ron,<br>
At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts.
Disadvantages: More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More
interconnects, more floor space. Advantages: More capacity for
less money. More tolerance for abuse. About the same real-world
cycle life (just based on experience). Lighter gauge and thus less
expensive interconnects. And two strings isn't too many. Like Ray,
I'm not too enamored of L16s as a value-based choice, although we
use a fair number. We typically see 4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and
about the same from golf carts.<br>
<br>
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On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4E7407E0.6080308@solarray.com" type="cite">
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Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php">http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php</a><br>
The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity
begins being reduced. <br>
I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks
like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles.<br>
Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on
their website?<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
7 PM, Ron Young wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:2F90A461-17D4-40ED-AEAF-D1974F253928@solareagle.com"
type="cite">Hi All,
<div>Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into
this conversation but the setup is basically in two strings
of 16 GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string
that I am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the
Surrettes vs 1 year for the US Batt.; half the number of
cells to water and check - and this is important as the
maintenance on these 4 systems is being done by a third
party who is not always reliably taking care of business;
half the number of connections; half the footprint ... </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only reason I can see someone recommending GC
batteries in this scenario has to do with the company who
set the systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be
the easy availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive
stores etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the
L-16's. Xantrex want to sell "arrive and drop" systems that
will be sold through mass retailers from what I can see.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000
series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the
U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC
batteries and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit
suspect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Young</div>
<div>
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<div>On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">forwarded from earth2<br>
<br>
<br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><b><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; color: rgb(108, 108, 108);">From: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">Ray Walters <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>><br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgb(108, 108, 108);">Date: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">September 16, 2011
1:03:43 PM PDT<br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgb(108, 108, 108);">To: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgb(108, 108, 108);">Subject: </span></b><b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">Re: [RE-wrenches]
battery cycle life, US Battery<br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
color: rgb(108, 108, 108);">Reply-To: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><br>
Larry, <br>
<br>
I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries
and strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s
will still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I
see only one solution to this battery bank, and that
is the HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing
golf cart batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate
for good design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no
brainer, as soon as the required amp hours gets into
the 1000 AH or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the
100 hr rate for the Rolls, as they are way too
optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much closer to
reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH battery at
the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD, when
everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware.<br>
Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the
internet:<br>
3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for
$4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles.<br>
HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last
2100 cycles to 80%DOD. <br>
That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the
battery compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the
Rolls S-530s. <br>
This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra
maintenance required for watering the L16 type
battery, nor the fact that you will have 4 battery
replacements for the same time the HUPs just have one
replacement. <br>
Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost
effective by about a 3 to1 ratio.<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is
a terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may
be.<span style="color: rgb(0, 61, 159);"><br>
<br>
Larry <br>
<br>
<br>
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote:<br>
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 80, 13);">The real
point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a
scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life
data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do
have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan
L16. (750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart
battery (some have cycle life below 400 cycles)
isn't as good as an L16, yes. You have to base your
decision, and your mouth, on test data for the
batteries considered. Also, you must always compare
at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples comparison. Its
usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish their cycle
life data. Of course you must temper the golf cart
vs L16 decision with good paralleling technique.<br>
We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4
strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger
banks, and skip the L16s all together. They just
don't make sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr
vs their lifespan.<br>
The only time I could see using L16s, was if the
battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of
golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not
afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property
soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value.<br>
I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data,
comparing costs, adding in maintenance and
replacement labor, etc..<br>
L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost
comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the
customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of
you happier in the long run.<br>
<br>
Ray Walters<br>
<br>
<br>
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