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Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php">http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php</a><br>
The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity
begins being reduced. <br>
I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks like
a typical L16, not over 500 cycles.<br>
Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on their
website?<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
7 PM, Ron Young wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:2F90A461-17D4-40ED-AEAF-D1974F253928@solareagle.com"
type="cite">Hi All,
<div>Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this
conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16 GC
batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I am
recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1 year
for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and check -
and this is important as the maintenance on these 4 systems is
being done by a third party who is not always reliably taking
care of business; half the number of connections; half the
footprint ... </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries
in this scenario has to do with the company who set the systems
up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy
availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores etc.
vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's. Xantrex want
to sell "arrive and drop" systems that will be sold through mass
retailers from what I can see.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000 series
batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the U.S. battery
chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries and L-16's or
any other type so I find it a bit suspect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Young</div>
<div>
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<div>On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">forwarded from earth2<br>
<br>
<br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><b><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; color: rgba(108, 108, 108, 1); ">From: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica; ">Ray Walters <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>><br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgba(108, 108, 108, 1); ">Date: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica; ">September 16, 2011
1:03:43 PM PDT<br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgba(108, 108, 108, 1); ">To: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica; ">RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgba(108, 108, 108, 1); ">Subject: </span></b><b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica; ">Re: [RE-wrenches]
battery cycle life, US Battery<br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
color: rgba(108, 108, 108, 1); ">Reply-To: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica; ">RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><br>
Larry, <br>
<br>
I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and
strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will
still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see only
one solution to this battery bank, and that is the HUP or
other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart
batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good design
in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer, as soon as
the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH or higher
range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for the Rolls,
as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr rates are much
closer to reality. The Rolls S-530 becomes a 400 AH
battery at the 20 hr rate, also they list cycles @50% DOD,
when everyone else is looking at 80%DOD, be aware.<br>
Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the
internet:<br>
3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for $4200.
cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles.<br>
HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100
cycles to 80%DOD. <br>
That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery
compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s. <br>
This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra
maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery,
nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements for
the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. <br>
Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost effective
by about a 3 to1 ratio.<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a
terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be.<span
style="color: rgba(0, 61, 159, 1); "><br>
<br>
Larry <br>
<br>
<br>
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote:<br>
</span><span style="color: rgba(0, 80, 13, 1); ">The real
point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a
scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life data
shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do have more
rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16. (750 vs
about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery (some have
cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good as an L16,
yes. You have to base your decision, and your mouth, on
test data for the batteries considered. Also, you must
always compare at 80% DOD, for an apples to apples
comparison. Its usually a clue if a manu doesn't publish
their cycle life data. Of course you must temper the
golf cart vs L16 decision with good paralleling
technique.<br>
We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4 strings),
jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks, and skip the
L16s all together. They just don't make sense when you
look at the cost/ amp hr vs their lifespan.<br>
The only time I could see using L16s, was if the battery
bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of golf cart
batteries, and the customer just could not afford the
HUPs, or were going to sell the property soon, and
wouldn't appreciate their long term value.<br>
I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data,
comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement
labor, etc..<br>
L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost
comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the customer
to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you happier in
the long run.<br>
<br>
Ray Walters<br>
<br>
<br>
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