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Ray,<br>
You referenced the wrong chart. Yours was for AGMs. Try
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable">http://www.surrette.com/content/specifications-renewable</a>.<br>
Allan<br>
<br>
Ron,<br>
At 48V, I could be tempted to pick the 16 golf carts. Disadvantages:
More cells to water and smaller reservoirs. More interconnects, more
floor space. Advantages: More capacity for less money. More
tolerance for abuse. About the same real-world cycle life (just
based on experience). Lighter gauge and thus less expensive
interconnects. And two strings isn't too many. Like Ray, I'm not too
enamored of L16s as a value-based choice, although we use a fair
number. We typically see 4 1/2 - 7 years from L16s, and about the
same from golf carts.<br>
<br>
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<font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif"><b>Allan Sindelar</b></font><br>
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On 9/16/2011 8:37 PM, Ray Walters wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:4E7407E0.6080308@solarray.com" type="cite">
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Here's the Rolls chart for cycle life:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php">http://www.surrette.com/content/agm-faqs?q=node/81&php</a><br>
The cycle life is considered to be the point before the capacity
begins being reduced. <br>
I'm not seeing anything close to 800 cycles at 80%DOD. It looks
like a typical L16, not over 500 cycles.<br>
Are you using a different chart than what Rolls is posting on
their website?<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
7 PM, Ron Young wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:2F90A461-17D4-40ED-AEAF-D1974F253928@solareagle.com"
type="cite">Hi All,
<div>Not sure where the 4 - 5 strings or more drifted into this
conversation but the setup is basically in two strings of 16
GC batteries (48v) vs. 8 L-16 batteries in one string that I
am recommending. With 7 year warranty for the Surrettes vs 1
year for the US Batt.; half the number of cells to water and
check - and this is important as the maintenance on these 4
systems is being done by a third party who is not always
reliably taking care of business; half the number of
connections; half the footprint ... </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The only reason I can see someone recommending GC batteries
in this scenario has to do with the company who set the
systems up - Xantrex and their rationale seems to be the easy
availability of the GC batteries e.g. in automotive stores
etc. vs the more specialized distribution of the L-16's.
Xantrex want to sell "arrive and drop" systems that will be
sold through mass retailers from what I can see.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Rolls d.o.d. at 80% shows 800 cycles for the 4000
series batteries vs. 675 on the U.S. Battery chart but the
U.S. battery chart doesn't differentiate between GC batteries
and L-16's or any other type so I find it a bit suspect.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron Young</div>
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<div>On 2011-09-16, at 1:06 PM, RM You wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">forwarded from earth2<br>
<br>
<br>
Begin forwarded message:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><b><span style="font-family:
Helvetica; color: rgb(108, 108, 108);">From: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">Ray Walters <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a>><br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgb(108, 108, 108);">Date: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">September 16, 2011
1:03:43 PM PDT<br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgb(108, 108, 108);">To: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica; color:
rgb(108, 108, 108);">Subject: </span></b><b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">Re: [RE-wrenches]
battery cycle life, US Battery<br>
</span></b><b><span style="font-family: Helvetica;
color: rgb(108, 108, 108);">Reply-To: </span></b><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;">RE-wrenches <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br>
</span><br>
Larry, <br>
<br>
I totally agree, that's a ridiculous # of batteries and
strings. If that's really the case, it seems L16s will
still need 4 to 5 strings, which is also crazy. I see
only one solution to this battery bank, and that is the
HUP or other large 2 v cell battery. Comparing golf cart
batteries to L16s isn't even on the plate for good
design in this case. For me, HUPs become a no brainer,
as soon as the required amp hours gets into the 1000 AH
or higher range. BTW, don't ever use the 100 hr rate for
the Rolls, as they are way too optimistic. The 20 hr
rates are much closer to reality. The Rolls S-530
becomes a 400 AH battery at the 20 hr rate, also they
list cycles @50% DOD, when everyone else is looking at
80%DOD, be aware.<br>
Here's some quicky math, with costs pulled off the
internet:<br>
3 strings of S530s (@24v) would get you 1200 AH for
$4200. cycle life at 80% DOD about 450 to 500 cycles.<br>
HUPs group 25 have 1270 AH and cost $7392, but last 2100
cycles to 80%DOD. <br>
That's about 11.5 cents/ kwh for the life of the battery
compared to about 29.2 cents/ kwh for the Rolls S-530s.
<br>
This quicky calculation doesn't even include the extra
maintenance required for watering the L16 type battery,
nor the fact that you will have 4 battery replacements
for the same time the HUPs just have one replacement. <br>
Its very fair to say that the HUPs are more cost
effective by about a 3 to1 ratio.<br>
<br>
Ray<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Having 6-8 parallel strings of golf cart batteries is a
terrible idea no matter how much better the GC2 may be.<span
style="color: rgb(0, 61, 159);"><br>
<br>
Larry <br>
<br>
<br>
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:01 AM, Ray Walters wrote:<br>
</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 80, 13);">The real
point is that the Xantrex guy is correct from a
scientific stance. Experimental battery cycle life
data shows that some golf cart batteries (T105) do
have more rated cycles to 80%DOD than the Trojan L16.
(750 vs about 600) A really crappy golf cart battery
(some have cycle life below 400 cycles) isn't as good
as an L16, yes. You have to base your decision, and
your mouth, on test data for the batteries considered.
Also, you must always compare at 80% DOD, for an
apples to apples comparison. Its usually a clue if a
manu doesn't publish their cycle life data. Of course
you must temper the golf cart vs L16 decision with
good paralleling technique.<br>
We use golf cart batteries (never more than 4
strings), jump straight to the HUPs for larger banks,
and skip the L16s all together. They just don't make
sense when you look at the cost/ amp hr vs their
lifespan.<br>
The only time I could see using L16s, was if the
battery bank requirements were beyond 4 strings of
golf cart batteries, and the customer just could not
afford the HUPs, or were going to sell the property
soon, and wouldn't appreciate their long term value.<br>
I've spent a lot of time looking at cycle life data,
comparing costs, adding in maintenance and replacement
labor, etc..<br>
L16s are serious losers on a $/ kwh operating cost
comparison, so this is a chance to up sell the
customer to HUPs (or equivalent) and make both of you
happier in the long run.<br>
<br>
Ray Walters<br>
<br>
<br>
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