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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='word-wrap: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>We use Sunearth and Heliodyne flat plate collectors and have not had any issues to date. After many issues with Thermomax, & Sunda evacuated tube collectors we are very happy with the Apricus ETC.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>Dana Orzel<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>Great Solar Works, Inc<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>E - dana@solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>V - 970.626.5253<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>F - 970.626.4140<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>C - 970.209.4076<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>web - www.solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'>Do not ever believe anything, but seriously trust through action.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Century Gothic","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Randy Brooks<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:04 PM<br><b>To:</b> Wrenches RE<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] collector leaks (was Stiebel Eltron SHW Collector condensation issue)<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Several years ago I stopped recommending solar hot water systems with pressurized collector loops, because of problems with leaks and the need to test and replace glycol solution every 3 to 5 years. I now recommend drainback systems from AET Solar (<a href="http://www.aetsolar.com">www.aetsolar.com</a>) that use a collector loop that is at or near atmospheric pressure, and use water as a collector fluid. This places a lot less strain on the collector loop plumbing. No problems since.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>Good luck,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'>Randy Brooks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'>Brooks Solar, Inc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><b><i><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'>Solar Power for People</span></i></b><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'>140 Columbia View<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'>Chelan, WA<span class=apple-converted-space> </span>98816<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'>509-682-9646<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'><a href="mailto:Randy@BrooksSolar.com">Randy@BrooksSolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span style='font-size:7.0pt;color:black'><a href="http://www.BrooksSolar.com">www.BrooksSolar.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'>On Jun 21, 2011, at 10:03 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>After 25 years of installing solar thermal panels, we have come to the unfortunate conclusion that they all suck. We have had out of the box failures on all panels we have used... and we are a very, very, very small company. We pressurize our solar thermal systems to 60-80 psi and let them sit for 3 days. If they hold that pressure... like a ROCK, we complete the install. What we find, as often as not, is some little piddly leak somewhere in the loop. Micro holes are not an uncommon encounter in panels. So, we then have to wrestle the solar thermal manufacturer into first believing their "infallible" product is leaking , "out of the box" and then pay, out of OUR pocket the substantial labor costs for its replacement. So far as I can tell, all solar thermal manufacturers warranty their panels for 10 years. But, they only cover $100.oo in labor costs to replace a defective product. This does not begin to cover our labor costs. Consequently, I have started down the road, (without success so far) of demanding solar thermal manufactures to stand behind their products with a 5 year $500.00 Labor warranty. I have talked to a ton of solar thermal manufacturers and they all say the same thing. "Our panels are the best. Our failure rate is less then 2%. We warranty them for 10 years, but we only pay $100.00 labor to replace those that are defective out of the box." I can't even get the evacuated tube guys to stand behind their product with a decent labor warranty!<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Perhaps if more than one solar Bozo stands up and says, "Enough, we want a panel with a 5 year $500.00 labor warranty". A manufacturer might see the competitive edge of being the first to do so.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Sincerely, <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>President</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Since 1987,</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Moving Portland and Beyond </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>503-238-4502</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"System","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/" target="_blank">www.solarenergyoregon.com</a> </span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'>"Better one's House too little one day</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-family:"Comic Sans MS";color:black'>than too big all the Year after."</span></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> August Goers <<a href="mailto:august@luminalt.com">august@luminalt.com</a>><br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:19 AM<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stiebel Eltron SHW Collector condensation issue</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div id=yiv1343100841><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Hi David -</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Doesn't sound fun. We experienced a similar problem with a 10-collector system with Schuco Slim-Vs about 3 years ago. The collectors had lots of condensation build up in them, especially during the rainy season. Schuco stepped up and gave us new 2nd generation collectors under warranty. The new collectors do not have the condensation problem. Apparently they redesigned the ventilation method. Generally speaking I like the Schuco product although now we're noticing a browning effect occurring near the in inlet and outlet pipes on the absorber plate on Slim Vs installed a few years ago. I have yet to deal with this issue.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'>It sounds like Stiebel is still working out their design. You'll probably want to make sure that they have it fully figured out before replacing the old collectors under warranty otherwise you might have the same problem!</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Good luck with it.</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'>Best, August</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Palumbo<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 20, 2011 12:58 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Stiebel Eltron SHW Collector condensation issue</span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>SHW Wrenches,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Our first experience with SHW flat plate collectors with a condensation issue on the inside of the collectors’ glass cover. The system has two Stiebel Eltron Sol 25 collectors (88” x 48” each) with a 82 gallon single heat exchanger insulated tank in the basement of the home, with a SOM 6 solar loop controller. System installed fall of 2008.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Condensation problem was first noticed by homeowner late last December. The collectors’ manufacturer, Stiebel Eltron, instructed us to watch and see if the problem resolved on its own. It did not. Stiebel then instructed us to drill small holes through the sides of the collectors near the top for venting and more holes through the sides near the bottom for draining the collector (see attached pdf for Stiebel’s venting advice). We did that in early May of this year. The homeowner called us back with the same condensation issue. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Stiebel then sent a bag of plastic insert venting plugs that required us to drill out larger holes in the side of the collectors and pop these vent plugs in. Plugs appear to be an attempt at making more venting area while trying to keep the rain out. After we installed these plugs we still have the same issue, homeowner still sees condensation and poor performance from the SHW system. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>The homeowner is now asking for new collectors under warranty. Have others experienced a similar SHW collector problem? And have collector manufacturers stepped up with new collectors?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='font-size:8.0pt;color:black'> </span><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>David Palumbo<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Independent Power LLC <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>462 Solar Way Drive<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Hyde Park, VT 05655<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><b><i><span style='color:black'><a href="http://www.independentpowerllc.com/" target="_blank">www.independentpowerllc.com</a> </span></i></b><span style='color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>NABCEP Certified PV Installer<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>Vermont Solar Partner<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'>23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span style='color:black'><br>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: <a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org" target="_blank">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br><br>Check out participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>