<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">After 25 years of installing solar thermal panels, we have come to the unfortunate conclusion that they all suck. We have had out of the box failures on all panels we have used... and we are a very, very, very small company. We pressurize our solar thermal systems to 60-80 psi and let them sit for 3 days. If they hold that pressure... like a ROCK, we complete the install. What we find, as often as not, is some little piddly leak somewhere in the loop. Micro holes are not an <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-0 data-attr="mark"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">uncommon</SPAN></SPAN> encounter in panels. So, we then have to wrestle the solar thermal manufacturer into first believing <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-1
data-attr="mark"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">their</SPAN></SPAN> "<SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-2 data-attr="mark"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">infallible</SPAN></SPAN>" product is leaking , "out of the box" and then pay, out of OUR pocket the substantial labor costs for its <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-3 data-attr="mark"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">replacement</SPAN></SPAN>. So far as I can tell, all solar thermal manufacturers <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-4 data-attr="mark"><SPAN>warranty</SPAN></SPAN> their panels for 10 years. But, they only cover $100.<SPAN id=misspell-5 data-attr="mark">oo</SPAN> in labor costs to replace a defective product. This does not begin to cover our labor costs. Consequently, I have started down the road, (without success so far) of demanding solar thermal manufactures to stand behind their <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-6 data-attr="mark"><SPAN
style="RIGHT: auto">products </SPAN></SPAN>with a 5 year $500.00 Labor <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-7 data-attr="mark"><SPAN>warranty</SPAN></SPAN>. I have talked to a ton of solar thermal manufacturers and they all say the same thing. "Our panels are the best. Our failure rate is less then 2%. W<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR>e <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-8 data-attr="mark"><SPAN>warranty</SPAN></SPAN> them for 10 years, but we only pay $100.00 labor to replace those that are defective out of the box." I can't even get the evacuated tube guys to stand behind their product with a decent labor <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-9 data-attr="mark"><SPAN>warranty</SPAN></SPAN>!</SPAN></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Perhaps if more than one solar Bozo stands up and says, "Enough, we want a panel with a 5 year $500.00 labor <SPAN style="RIGHT: auto" id=misspell-10 data-attr="mark"><SPAN>warranty</SPAN></SPAN>". A manufacturer might see the competitive edge of being the first to do so.</SPAN></div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Sincerely,</SPAN> </div>
<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV style="RIGHT: auto"> </DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=arial>Andrew <SPAN id=misspell-11 data-attr="mark">Koyaanisqatsi</SPAN></FONT></B></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial>President</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=arial>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.</FONT></B></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial>Since 1987,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial>Moving Portland and Beyond </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial>to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=arial><B>503-238-4502</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><B><FONT face=System><A href="http://www.solarenergyoregon.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.solarenergyoregon.com</A> </FONT></B></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="comic sans ms"><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="comic sans ms"><B>"Better <SPAN id=misspell-12 data-attr="mark">one's</SPAN> House too little one day</B></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="comic sans ms"><B>than too big all the Year after."</B></FONT></DIV>
<div><BR></div>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> August Goers <august@luminalt.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Tuesday, June 21, 2011 7:19 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [RE-wrenches] <SPAN id=misspell-13 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-14 data-attr="mark">Eltron</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-15 data-attr="mark">SHW</SPAN> Collector condensation issue<BR></FONT><BR>
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<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Hi David -</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Doesn't sound fun. We experienced a similar problem with a 10-collector system with <SPAN id=misspell-16 data-attr="mark">Schuco</SPAN> Slim-Vs about 3 years ago. The collectors had lots of condensation build up in them, especially during the rainy season. <SPAN id=misspell-17 data-attr="mark">Schuco</SPAN> stepped up and gave us new 2<SPAN id=misspell-18 data-attr="mark">nd</SPAN> generation collectors under warranty. The new collectors do not have the condensation problem. Apparently they redesigned the ventilation method. Generally speaking I like the <SPAN id=misspell-19 data-attr="mark">Schuco</SPAN> product although now we're noticing a browning effect occurring near the in inlet and outlet pipes on the absorber plate on Slim Vs installed a few years ago. I have yet to deal with this issue.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">It sounds like <SPAN id=misspell-20 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> is still working out their design. You'll probably want to make sure that they have it fully figured out before replacing the old collectors under warranty otherwise you might have the same problem!</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Good luck with it.</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d">Best, August</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="COLOR: #1f497d"> </SPAN></div>
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<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A> [<SPAN id=misspell-21 data-attr="mark">mailto</SPAN>:<A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dave <SPAN id=misspell-22 data-attr="mark">Palumbo</SPAN><BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 20, 2011 12:58 PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] <SPAN id=misspell-23 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-24 data-attr="mark">Eltron</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-25 data-attr="mark">SHW</SPAN> Collector condensation issue</SPAN></div></DIV></DIV>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal> </div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN id=misspell-26 data-attr="mark">SHW</SPAN> Wrenches,</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>Our first experience with <SPAN id=misspell-27 data-attr="mark">SHW</SPAN> flat plate collectors with a condensation issue on the inside of the collectors’ glass cover. The system has two <SPAN id=misspell-28 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-29 data-attr="mark">Eltron</SPAN> Sol 25 collectors (88” x 48” each) with a 82 gallon single heat exchanger insulated tank in the basement of the home, with a <SPAN id=misspell-30 data-attr="mark">SOM</SPAN> 6 solar loop controller. System installed fall of 2008.</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>Condensation problem was first noticed by homeowner late last December. The collectors’ manufacturer, <SPAN id=misspell-31 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> <SPAN id=misspell-32 data-attr="mark">Eltron</SPAN>, instructed us to watch and see if the problem resolved on its own. It did not. <SPAN id=misspell-33 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> then instructed us to drill small holes through the sides of the collectors near the top for venting and more holes through the sides near the bottom for draining the collector (see attached <SPAN id=misspell-34 data-attr="mark">pdf</SPAN> for <SPAN id=misspell-35 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN>’s venting advice). We did that in early May of this year. The homeowner called us back with the same condensation issue. </div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN id=misspell-36 data-attr="mark">Stiebel</SPAN> then sent a bag of plastic insert venting plugs that required us to drill out larger holes in the side of the collectors and pop these vent plugs in. Plugs appear to be an attempt at making more venting area while trying to keep the rain out. After we installed these plugs we still have the same issue, homeowner still sees condensation and poor performance from the <SPAN id=misspell-37 data-attr="mark">SHW</SPAN> system. </div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>The homeowner is now asking for new collectors under warranty. Have others experienced a similar <SPAN id=misspell-38 data-attr="mark">SHW</SPAN> collector problem? And have collector manufacturers stepped up with new collectors?</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>Thanks,</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 8pt"> </SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>David <SPAN id=misspell-39 data-attr="mark">Palumbo</SPAN></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>Independent Power <SPAN id=misspell-40 data-attr="mark">LLC</SPAN> </div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>462 Solar Way Drive</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>Hyde Park, VT 05655<B></B></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><B><I><A href="http://www.independentpowerllc.com/" rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.independentpowerllc.com</A> </I></B></div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal><SPAN id=misspell-41 data-attr="mark">NABCEP</SPAN> Certified <SPAN id=misspell-42 data-attr="mark">PV</SPAN> Installer</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>Vermont Solar Partner</div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal>23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 </div>
<div class=yiv1343100841MsoNormal> </div></DIV></DIV>
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