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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='WORD-WRAP: break-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I have been using buss bars for 12 years or so and about 8 years ago started to add a class “T” fuse to the connection at each buss bar in most systems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I have seen thermal runaway hit the industrial batteries I service. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>It would be best to avoid it in a battery box if at all possible.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Do a search for buss bars or battery interconnector straps and you can locate them. I am lucky that I have a supplier that I visit and he had some lying around that he gave me. Drill them to fit the fuses and attach the cables to the fuses.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>If you are using a battery with a terminal you can bolt to, you can put the fuse there also.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I attach the buss bars to the battery boxes with electric fence insulators as much as a standoff as anything else. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I also use a board between them so there is no way to get contact between the 2 bars when working in the box. Trust me, they will spark rather well if you keep putting off wrapping the ends of the wrenches….. Also watch the ends of the cables as you’re whipping them around in there too, best to wrap them with tape and pull it off when you’re ready to connect them. As we all know there are lots of exposed terminals in a battery bank and only ½ of them are friendly.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Using the buss bars has stopped the end cell failures that I used to see from all the batteries going to the major pos and neg terminals.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I am on a useless dial up at the moment but will try a search for the buss bars when I get back to the real world.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Later,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Bob<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=4 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Brian Teitelbaum<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 2:50 PM<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Does anyone know of a manufacturer or supplier of fused battery buss bars or battery string combiners (preferably using Class-T fuses) that are UL Listed for use in residential or commercial applications?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Brian Teitelbaum<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>AEE Solar<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color="#1f497d" face=Calibri><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Tom Elliot<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 11:36 AM<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> RE-wrenches<br><b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>What? No royalties? Damn...(but thanks for the props) Sorry I misunderstood what you meant.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>My installs of buss bars back in the day had cable pairs of the same length but different pairs could be of different lengths with the consideration being bank construction. I’d use slightly oversized cables to minimize resistance differences. Since the cables from each string only carried current from that string it also made for easier installation. In these days of grid-tie I’m seeing less and less discussion of batteries, good to see another one happening even if it was prompted by a failure, though I guess that’s how we learn.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" title="ray@solarray.com">R Ray Walters</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Wednesday, April 20, 2011 8:16 AM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Tom; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>That's exactly what Daryl and I were suggesting: all strings paralleled to a central combiner box with breakers on each series string.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>The only thing I left out was that each cable set should be the same length ( which Daryl was already suggesting).<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>You need to reread what we were talking about. We got this idea from you many years ago, so the record is not broken;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>its been pirated, reposted for Free download on all sorts of unsavory sites, and you aren't getting a royalty check....<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, and this list listens to and appreciates you.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>R. Walters<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Solar Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>On Apr 19, 2011, at 10:16 PM, Tom Elliot wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>The broken record will now repeat himself yet again. Bussbars are the way to go, not across battery terminals but individual strings connected to a central positive and negative buss from which the inverter connection then runs. This allows fusing of each individual connection and also allows for smaller positive cables and no need to have identical length parallel cables since each string is independently connected. It’s what telecom installations use. The Telecom guys who showed me how to do it literally laughed when told about paralleling across battery terminals. They then told me they considered it profoundly stupid and dangerous and since I had just avoided a meltdown myself by catching a bad cell before complete failure I got the message pretty quick.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Really guys, this is amazingly simple and yes, it may mean a bit more cabling and another component but from a safety standpoint those considerations are pretty minor and cheap insurance against disaster.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Tom<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com" title="ray@solarray.com">R Ray Walters</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Tuesday, April 19, 2011 6:01 PM<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>To:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" title="re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</a> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:whitesmoke'><b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black;font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></font></b><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'> Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteries in parrallel Failure<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I like the fused parallel idea; could save the system, and would make battery troubleshooting nice. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>I would suggest #6 jumpers with 50 to 60 amp breakers, so the system could be operated on just a few strings if needed.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>R. Walters<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'><a href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>Solar Engineer<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=1 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>On Apr 19, 2011, at 8:29 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Batteries in parallel, How to protect from catastrophic failure.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I just got contacted to commission a solar system off grid not of my design. Eight battery strings in parallel, AGM batteries, 24 volts @ 120 AH each string (two 12 volt in series) New system, new batteries, Silent POwer Inverter. Two kW DC array. generator to charge through Silent power. (present installer is not sure how to do final set up and testing) <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I am most concerned about 8 batteries in parallel, (especially since last week a set of AGM burned up having 5 in parallel Owner had no way to break the paralleling of the batteries, she could only stop the chargeing) What I am proposing for your review is requireing the installtion of two combiner boxes Midnight solar with a breaker in each battery string, using about 3' of #10 to connect each battery string to the combiner box. This way if a battery failed and the paralled strings were to "dump" into the failed battery it would trip the breaker. I was thinking of using a 30 amp breaker in each string. The main breaker is set at 240 amps. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Ideas Please? <span class=apple-converted-space> </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=2 color=black face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=1 width="100%" align=center></span></font></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:13.5pt'><font size=4 color=black face=Helvetica><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br><a href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm">www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</a><br><br>Check out participant bios:<br><a href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/">www.members.re-wrenches.org</a><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></font></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br><br>Check out participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></font></div><p class=avgcert><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com/">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 10.0.1321 / Virus Database: 1500/3584 - Release Date: 04/19/11<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: <a href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>Options & settings:<br><a href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org">http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</a><br><br>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br><br>Check out participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div></div></div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></font></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>_______________________________________________<br>List sponsored by Home Power magazine<br><br>List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br><br>Options & settings:<br>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br><br>List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org<br><br>List rules & etiquette:<br>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm<br><br>Check out participant bios:<br>www.members.re-wrenches.org<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></font></div><p class=avgcert><font size=3 color=black face=Calibri><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - 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