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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Wouldn’t a fault in that conductor between the main and the sub have a potential for up to 160A of current? I would think that at noon on a sunny day, the inverter system could produce 80A from one direction (albeit really only the max amperage outputs of the inverters) and 80A of grid current from the main into a partial fault.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Brian Teitelbaum<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>AEE Solar <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Frye<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:49 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter outputs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Al,</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>I would say that yes the meter is a load and this goes to show the relative inadequacy of the vocabulary we are using in the discussion. In the example we have been using with the 80A breaker, wire and sub panel, you could have up to 80A of loads installed in the sub and still not create an over current condition in any of that equipment.</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> <br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Mark Frye</span><span style='color:windowtext'> <br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems</span><span style='color:windowtext'> <br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>303 Redbud Way</span><span style='color:windowtext'> <br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>Nevada City, CA 95959</span><span style='color:windowtext'> <br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>(530) 401-8024</span><span style='color:windowtext'> <br><a href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.berkeleysolar.com</span></a></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> </span><span style='color:windowtext'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><span style='color:windowtext'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></span></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Al Frishman<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:00 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter outputs</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Is a monitoring system installed in the Load Center to measure the cumulative kWh’s of the inverter’s considered a load? <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The type of monitoring device I am talking about has CT’s that go around the conductors and the Voltage ref is taken by attaching conductors to each phase, the Neutral and the ground bar. The digital Meter has a 3-pole 5A breaker in it so the conductors in the load center can be connected to lugs on the bus bar directly.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Al Frishman</span></i><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft Sans Serif'","serif";color:#030100'>Aeon</span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft Sans Serif'","serif";color:#FF9700'>Solar</span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>(917) 699-6641 - cell</span></i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br><i>(888) 460-2867</i><br><i><a href="http://www.aeonsolar.com/">www.aeonsolar.com</a></i></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></i></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter outputs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Another key is to remember that this discussion also applies to the conductor between the main panel and subpanel. In a large PV system, this could result in a pretty large wire between the two panels, and a significant cost that is often overlooked. In some cases it makes sense to locate the subpanel close to the main panel and run multiple sets of smaller wires from the inverters to the subpanel.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And because the calculation is based on the first OC protection connected to the inverters, adding a main breaker (theoretically 80A in this example) in the subpanel doesn’t change things. Even though this wire would be theoretically protected by an 80A breaker at each end, you can’t size the wire for 160A / 1.2 = 133.3A. You have to size for 180A/1.2 = 150A. (not that it makes much of a difference in this example, but it still must be considered)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>At least that’s how I understand it…<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jason Szumlanski<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fafco Solar</span><span style='font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Frye<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter outputs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Opps!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>My bad, I was thinking of a single phase system, not the three phase system shown in the article.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>For the three phase system Kent is correct in counting 180A of supply per bar.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mark Frye</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>303 Redbud Way</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Nevada City, CA 95959</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(530) 401-8024</span> <br><a href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.berkeleysolar.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Frye<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter outputs</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>I think Kent and I agree. For the case where the subpanel is not dedicated a PV sub-panel he is calculating for 2 - 50A breakers and I calculated for 3 - 50A breakers.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mark Frye</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>303 Redbud Way</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Nevada City, CA 95959</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(530) 401-8024</span> <br><a href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.berkeleysolar.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Osterberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multiple inverter outputs</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Per 705.12(D) the sub-panel could be any distribution equipment on the premises. So the question becomes: is the sub-panel capable of supplying branch circuits or feeder loads? If yes, then the sum of the breakers (potentially) feeding the bus is 180 amps so a 150-amp rating is required and the inverters would have to feed the opposite end of the bus bars. If no, the code is not clear on the requirement, but obviously the 80-amp breaker in the main panel limits the maximum current flowing through the sub-panel. <br><br>Kent Osterberg<br>Blue Mountain Solar<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>