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<DIV><SPAN class=342292218-30032011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>By
this argument, wouldn't it be necessary to check every conductor in the backfeed
path adding potential PV amps to their required ampacity including the
utility conductor from the transformer?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=342292218-30032011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=342292218-30032011><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff
size=2>Kris</FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>Legacy Solar, LLC<BR>864 Clam Falls Trail<BR>Frederic, WI
54837<BR>715-653-4295<BR>solman@legacysolar.com<BR>www.legacysolar.com
</FONT></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Jason
Szumlanski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:08 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combinemultiple inverter outputs<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Here
is a 690.64(B)(2) opinion from Wiles that may help. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><A
href="http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/409/690%2064%28B%29%282%29TECH-1.pdf">http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/409/690%2064%28B%29%282%29TECH-1.pdf</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">It’s
still my contention that the conductors need to be sized for 150A in this
example, unless an exception is made by the AHJ. If David Brearley’s post
about Wiles’ clarification is accurate, them the 80A main breaker in the
subpanel can be used for calculations, but the conductor still needs to be
sized for 80A + 80A =160A / 1.2 = 133.3A.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Cambria','serif'">Jason<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Kent
Osterberg<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 12:57 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combine multiple inverter outputs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal>Al,<BR><BR>How about a 15-amp single-pole breaker for power
line carrier communications equipment to talk to the
inverters?<BR>Technically, I think either way they are loads and that changes
everything. But in my opinion they are minor and should be allowed without
considering the sum of all sources.<BR><BR>Kent Osterberg<BR>Blue Mountain
Solar<BR><BR><BR>Al Frishman wrote: <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Is
a monitoring system installed in the Load Center to measure the cumulative
kWh’s of the inverter’s considered a load? </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The
type of monitoring device I am talking about has CT’s that go around the
conductors and the Voltage ref is taken by attaching conductors to each phase,
the Neutral and the ground bar. The digital Meter has a
3-pole 5A breaker in it so the conductors in the load center can be connected
to lugs on the bus bar directly.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Al
Frishman</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #030100; FONT-FAMILY: ''Microsoft Sans Serif''">Aeon</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; COLOR: #ff9700; FONT-FAMILY: ''Microsoft Sans Serif''">Solar</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">(917)
699-6641 - cell</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'"><BR><I>(888)
460-2867</I><BR><I><A
href="http://www.aeonsolar.com/">www.aeonsolar.com</A></I></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center><I><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN></I><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Jason Szumlanski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011
8:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B> RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing
a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter
outputs</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Another
key is to remember that this discussion also applies to the conductor between
the main panel and subpanel. In a large PV system, this could result in a
pretty large wire between the two panels, and a significant cost that is often
overlooked. In some cases it makes sense to locate the subpanel close to the
main panel and run multiple sets of smaller wires from the inverters to the
subpanel.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">And
because the calculation is based on the first OC protection connected to the
inverters, adding a main breaker (theoretically 80A in this example) in the
subpanel doesn’t change things. Even though this wire would be theoretically
protected by an 80A breaker at each end, you can’t size the wire for 160A /
1.2 = 133.3A. You have to size for 180A/1.2 = 150A. (not that it makes much of
a difference in this example, but it still must be
considered)</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">At
least that’s how I understand it…</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Jason
Szumlanski</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Fafco
Solar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 4pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: windowtext 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">
<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark Frye<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:33
AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a
sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter
outputs</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Opps!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">My
bad, I was thinking of a single phase system, not the three phase
system shown in the article.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">For
the three phase system Kent is correct in counting 180A of supply per
bar.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Mark Frye</SPAN>
<BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Berkeley
Solar Electric Systems</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">303 Redbud
Way</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Nevada City,
CA 95959</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">(530)
401-8024</SPAN> <BR><A href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">www.berkeleysolar.com</SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=center>
<HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=2>
</DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark Frye<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:17
PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a
sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter outputs</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">I
think Kent and I agree. For the case where the subpanel is not dedicated
a PV sub-panel he is calculating for 2 - 50A breakers and I calculated for 3 -
50A breakers.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Mark Frye</SPAN>
<BR><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Berkeley
Solar Electric Systems</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">303 Redbud
Way</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Nevada City,
CA 95959</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">(530)
401-8024</SPAN> <BR><A href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">www.berkeleysolar.com</SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'"> </SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
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<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>
[<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Kent Osterberg<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 29, 2011
9:26 PM<BR><B>To:</B> RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing
a sub-panel used to combine multiple inverter outputs</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt">Per 705.12(D) the sub-panel
could be any distribution equipment on the premises. So the question becomes:
is the sub-panel capable of supplying branch circuits or feeder loads? If yes,
then the sum of the breakers (potentially) feeding the bus is 180 amps so a
150-amp rating is required and the inverters would have to feed the opposite
end of the bus bars. If no, the code is not clear on the requirement, but
obviously the 80-amp breaker in the main panel limits the maximum current
flowing through the sub-panel. <BR><BR>Kent Osterberg<BR>Blue Mountain
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