<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:x="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:excel" xmlns:p="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:powerpoint" xmlns:a="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:access" xmlns:dt="uuid:C2F41010-65B3-11d1-A29F-00AA00C14882" xmlns:s="uuid:BDC6E3F0-6DA3-11d1-A2A3-00AA00C14882" xmlns:rs="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:rowset" xmlns:z="#RowsetSchema" xmlns:b="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:publisher" xmlns:ss="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:spreadsheet" xmlns:c="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:component:spreadsheet" xmlns:odc="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:odc" xmlns:oa="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:activation" xmlns:html="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:q="http://schemas.xmlsoap.org/soap/envelope/" xmlns:rtc="http://microsoft.com/officenet/conferencing" xmlns:D="DAV:" xmlns:Repl="http://schemas.microsoft.com/repl/" xmlns:mt="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/meetings/" xmlns:x2="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/excel/2003/xml" xmlns:ppda="http://www.passport.com/NameSpace.xsd" xmlns:ois="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/ois/" xmlns:dir="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/directory/" xmlns:ds="http://www.w3.org/2000/09/xmldsig#" xmlns:dsp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/dsp" xmlns:udc="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc" xmlns:xsd="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema" xmlns:sub="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/2002/1/alerts/" xmlns:ec="http://www.w3.org/2001/04/xmlenc#" xmlns:sp="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/" xmlns:sps="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xmlns:udcs="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/soap" xmlns:udcxf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/xmlfile" xmlns:udcp2p="http://schemas.microsoft.com/data/udc/parttopart" xmlns:wf="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/workflow/" xmlns:dsss="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig-setup" xmlns:dssi="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2006/digsig" xmlns:mdssi="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/digital-signature" xmlns:mver="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/markup-compatibility/2006" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns:mrels="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/package/2006/relationships" xmlns:spwp="http://microsoft.com/sharepoint/webpartpages" xmlns:ex12t="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/types" xmlns:ex12m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/exchange/services/2006/messages" xmlns:pptsl="http://schemas.microsoft.com/sharepoint/soap/SlideLibrary/" xmlns:spsl="http://microsoft.com/webservices/SharePointPortalServer/PublishedLinksService" xmlns:Z="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:" xmlns:st="" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I hope there are no potential loads between the meter and the transformer, so no! Technically, if it is a supply side tap, the evaluation would include the conductor from the meter to the main distribution panel I believe, but if it is a load side connection it does not matter because of the main breaker in the main distribution panel. Honestly, I’ve never closely scrutinized the meter->MDP wiring for supply side connections, but I am confident that a limitation never came into play.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1F497D'>Jason<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kristopher Schmid<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 2:28 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used tocombinemultiple inverter outputs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>By this argument, wouldn't it be necessary to check every conductor in the backfeed path adding potential PV amps to their required ampacity including the utility conductor from the transformer?</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:windowtext'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Kris</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p><span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Legacy Solar, LLC<br>864 Clam Falls Trail<br>Frederic, WI 54837<br>715-653-4295<br>solman@legacysolar.com<br>www.legacysolar.com </span><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>-----Original Message-----<br><b>From:</b> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:08 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultiple inverter outputs</span><span style='color:windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Here is a 690.64(B)(2) opinion from Wiles that may help. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/409/690%2064%28B%29%282%29TECH-1.pdf">http://www.fafcosolar.com/download/409/690%2064%28B%29%282%29TECH-1.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s still my contention that the conductors need to be sized for 150A in this example, unless an exception is made by the AHJ. If David Brearley’s post about Wiles’ clarification is accurate, them the 80A main breaker in the subpanel can be used for calculations, but the conductor still needs to be sized for 80A + 80A =160A / 1.2 = 133.3A.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Cambria","serif";color:#1F497D'>Jason<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Osterberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 12:57 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multiple inverter outputs<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Al,<br><br>How about a 15-amp single-pole breaker for power line carrier communications equipment to talk to the inverters?<br>Technically, I think either way they are loads and that changes everything. But in my opinion they are minor and should be allowed without considering the sum of all sources.<br><br>Kent Osterberg<br>Blue Mountain Solar<br><br><br>Al Frishman wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Is a monitoring system installed in the Load Center to measure the cumulative kWh’s of the inverter’s considered a load? </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The type of monitoring device I am talking about has CT’s that go around the conductors and the Voltage ref is taken by attaching conductors to each phase, the Neutral and the ground bar. The digital Meter has a 3-pole 5A breaker in it so the conductors in the load center can be connected to lugs on the bus bar directly.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Al Frishman</span></i><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br></span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft Sans Serif'","serif";color:#030100'>Aeon</span><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Microsoft Sans Serif'","serif";color:#FF9700'>Solar</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>(917) 699-6641 - cell</span></i><span style='font-size:10.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'><br><i>(888) 460-2867</i><br><i><a href="http://www.aeonsolar.com/">www.aeonsolar.com</a></i></span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><i><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span></i><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jason Szumlanski<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:18 AM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter outputs</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Another key is to remember that this discussion also applies to the conductor between the main panel and subpanel. In a large PV system, this could result in a pretty large wire between the two panels, and a significant cost that is often overlooked. In some cases it makes sense to locate the subpanel close to the main panel and run multiple sets of smaller wires from the inverters to the subpanel.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And because the calculation is based on the first OC protection connected to the inverters, adding a main breaker (theoretically 80A in this example) in the subpanel doesn’t change things. Even though this wire would be theoretically protected by an 80A breaker at each end, you can’t size the wire for 160A / 1.2 = 133.3A. You have to size for 180A/1.2 = 150A. (not that it makes much of a difference in this example, but it still must be considered)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>At least that’s how I understand it…</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jason Szumlanski</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fafco Solar</span><span style='font-size:4.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Frye<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:33 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combinemultipleinverter outputs</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>Opps!</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>My bad, I was thinking of a single phase system, not the three phase system shown in the article.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>For the three phase system Kent is correct in counting 180A of supply per bar.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mark Frye</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>303 Redbud Way</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Nevada City, CA 95959</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(530) 401-8024</span> <br><a href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.berkeleysolar.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Mark Frye<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:17 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multipleinverter outputs</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>I think Kent and I agree. For the case where the subpanel is not dedicated a PV sub-panel he is calculating for 2 - 50A breakers and I calculated for 3 - 50A breakers.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Mark Frye</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>303 Redbud Way</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Nevada City, CA 95959</span> <br><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>(530) 401-8024</span> <br><a href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>www.berkeleysolar.com</span></a><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> </span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Osterberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:26 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to combine multiple inverter outputs</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Per 705.12(D) the sub-panel could be any distribution equipment on the premises. So the question becomes: is the sub-panel capable of supplying branch circuits or feeder loads? If yes, then the sum of the breakers (potentially) feeding the bus is 180 amps so a 150-amp rating is required and the inverters would have to feed the opposite end of the bus bars. If no, the code is not clear on the requirement, but obviously the 80-amp breaker in the main panel limits the maximum current flowing through the sub-panel. <br><br>Kent Osterberg<br>Blue Mountain Solar<o:p></o:p></p><pre> <o:p></o:p></pre></blockquote></div></body></html>