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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578463616-30032011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Al,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578463616-30032011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578463616-30032011><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>I would say that yes the meter is a load and this goes to show
the relative inadequacy of the vocabulary we are using in the discussion. In the
example we have been using with the 80A breaker, wire and sub panel, you could
have up to 80A of loads installed in the sub and still not create an over
current condition in any of that equipment.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=578463616-30032011></SPAN> <BR><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Mark Frye</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Berkeley Solar Electric Systems</FONT></SPAN>
<BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2 face=Arial>303 Redbud Way</FONT></SPAN>
<BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Nevada City, CA
95959</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT size=2 face=Arial>(530)
401-8024</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN><A
href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><SPAN lang=en-us><U><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>www.berkeleysolar.com</FONT></U></SPAN></A><SPAN
lang=en-us><FONT size=2 face=Arial> </FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV dir=ltr lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Al
Frishman<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 9:00 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combine multipleinverter outputs<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Is
a monitoring system installed in the Load Center to measure the cumulative kWh’s
of the inverter’s considered a load? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
type of monitoring device I am talking about has CT’s that go around the
conductors and the Voltage ref is taken by attaching conductors to each phase,
the Neutral and the ground bar. The digital Meter has a 3-pole
5A breaker in it so the conductors in the load center can be connected to lugs
on the bus bar directly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">Al
Frishman</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><BR></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ''Microsoft Sans Serif''; COLOR: #030100; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Aeon</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: ''Microsoft Sans Serif''; COLOR: #ff9700; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Solar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">(917) 699-6641
- cell</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><BR></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt">(888)
460-2867</SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><BR></SPAN><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10.5pt"><A
href="http://www.aeonsolar.com/">www.aeonsolar.com</A></SPAN></I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></I></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Jason
Szumlanski<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 8:18 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combinemultipleinverter outputs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Another
key is to remember that this discussion also applies to the conductor between
the main panel and subpanel. In a large PV system, this could result in a pretty
large wire between the two panels, and a significant cost that is often
overlooked. In some cases it makes sense to locate the subpanel close to the
main panel and run multiple sets of smaller wires from the inverters to the
subpanel.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">And
because the calculation is based on the first OC protection connected to the
inverters, adding a main breaker (theoretically 80A in this example) in the
subpanel doesn’t change things. Even though this wire would be theoretically
protected by an 80A breaker at each end, you can’t size the wire for 160A / 1.2
= 133.3A. You have to size for 180A/1.2 = 150A. (not that it makes much of a
difference in this example, but it still must be
considered)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">At
least that’s how I understand it…<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Jason
Szumlanski<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Fafco
Solar</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 4pt">
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark
Frye<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, March 30, 2011 1:33 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combinemultipleinverter outputs<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Opps!</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">My bad,
I was thinking of a single phase system, not the three phase system
shown in the article.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">For the
three phase system Kent is correct in counting 180A of supply per
bar.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mark Frye</SPAN>
<BR><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Berkeley
Solar Electric Systems</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">303 Redbud Way</SPAN>
<BR><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Nevada
City, CA 95959</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(530) 401-8024</SPAN>
<BR><A href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.berkeleysolar.com</SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Mark
Frye<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 10:17 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
'RE-wrenches'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combine multipleinverter outputs</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I think
Kent and I agree. For the case where the subpanel is not dedicated a PV
sub-panel he is calculating for 2 - 50A breakers and I calculated for 3 - 50A
breakers.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Mark Frye</SPAN>
<BR><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Berkeley
Solar Electric Systems</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">303 Redbud Way</SPAN>
<BR><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Nevada
City, CA 95959</SPAN> <BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">(530) 401-8024</SPAN>
<BR><A href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.berkeleysolar.com</SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN>
<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Kent
Osterberg<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, March 29, 2011 9:26 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] sizing a sub-panel used to
combine multiple inverter outputs</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Per 705.12(D) the sub-panel could
be any distribution equipment on the premises. So the question becomes: is the
sub-panel capable of supplying branch circuits or feeder loads? If yes, then the
sum of the breakers (potentially) feeding the bus is 180 amps so a 150-amp
rating is required and the inverters would have to feed the opposite end of the
bus bars. If no, the code is not clear on the requirement, but obviously the
80-amp breaker in the main panel limits the maximum current flowing through the
sub-panel. <BR><BR>Kent Osterberg<BR>Blue Mountain
Solar<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>