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Larry,<br>
<br>
Yes, the PV system was straight grid-tie. The back-upped loads were
only covered by the generator (no battery-based inverter was involved).
The ATS also does the generator startup, so an inverter on the
backed-upped loads would require some thinking I haven't done. If the
generator startup were changed, my first thought would be to put the
battery-based inverter on the generator side of the ATS.<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar <br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:wirewiz@gmail.com">wirewiz@gmail.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:8CA75E13-3054-47A3-883C-BB8BA4FEAFB4@gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div>Kent,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Situations vary but this one line helps a lot, thanks.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, "To PV System" would go to the output of a grid tie
inverter and "To Backed Up Loads" would go to the AC IN (transfer
switch) of a battery inverter. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have been going to homes with existing 100A gen/utility ATS
and wondering if I could keep it as is and be able to add a grid tie
battery backup to it (using same backup loads). This schematic would
work in that situation as well but wouldn't have the "To Non-Backed UP
Loads" tap.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span"
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class="Apple-style-span"
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<div style=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
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<div style=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style="">
<div>Larry Liesner</div>
<div>Wirewiz</div>
<div>Westport, CT</div>
<div>Phone: 203-644-2404</div>
<div>Fax: 203-557-0556</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wirewiz@gmail.com">wirewiz@gmail.com</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.wire-wiz.com">www.wire-wiz.com</a></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 27, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Kent Osterberg wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">Larry,<br>
<br>
Situations vary so much that this might not be very useful. But here
you go. The attached sketch shows how we recently connected a customer
that had a backup generator and transfer switch that wasn't service
rated. There were nice gutters existing from the original install so
accessing points to tap conductors wasn't difficult. We could have
connected the inverters to the non-backed upped loads panel instead,
but the utility requires an accessible disconnect by the meter so it
was more convenient to just get into the gutter.<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:wirewiz@gmail.com">wirewiz@gmail.com</a> wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:D2B833A6-683E-4066-9FD7-42FA905103AC@gmail.com" type="cite">Kent,
Jason, or anyone else
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Would you a have a simple one-line you could share for
wiring
the inverter on the utility side of the transfer switch? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you.</div>
<div><br>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;"><span
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<div style=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
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<div style=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style=""><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;">
<div style="">
<div>Larry Liesner</div>
<div>Wirewiz</div>
<div>Westport, CT</div>
<div>Phone: 203-644-2404</div>
<div>Fax: 203-557-0556</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:wirewiz@gmail.com">wirewiz@gmail.com</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.wire-wiz.com/">www.wire-wiz.com</a></div>
<div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium;"><br>
</span></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></div>
</span></span></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 26, 2011, at 6:04 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span"
style="border-collapse: separate; font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; font-size: medium;">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-US">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;">
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We’ve
explored this strategy many times due to all of the whole house and
critical load generators in Florida. We’ve stayed away from the
contactor solution because of the potential for the NC contactor
failing to open, keeping the inverters “online” when transferred to
generator power. While unlikely, this is a possibility that must be
considered.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
other issue presented here is that the inverters will shut down every
time the generator exercises.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
only sure-fire way seems to be wiring the inverter on the utility side
of the transfer switch, as Kent said.<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Jason
Szumlanski<o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fafco
Solar</span><span
style="font-size: 4pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p> </o:p></span></div>
<div>
<div
style="border-style: solid none none; border-top: 1pt solid rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;">
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif; color: windowtext;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Kent Osterberg<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
March 26, 2011 5:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>RE-wrenches<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[RE-wrenches] Generator and Enphase<o:p></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;">Mark,<br>
<br>
I agree it is best to wire the inverters on the utility side of the
transfer switch. When that isn't easy, a normally closed contactor that
is opened by generator voltage, will isolate the inverters from the
generator and allow automatic return to utility operation when the
generator is off.<br>
<br>
Kent Osterberg<br>
Blue Mountain Solar<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Mark Frye wrote:<o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">Eric,</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">I
do not have direct experience with this but have been exploring the
issue for a project I am currently doing.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">My
response will be to take the trouble to interconnect the Enphase
inverters on the line side of the tranfer switch so that the inverters
can never be connected to the generator.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">Here
are the reasons why:</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">1
- Enphase states that any such application is considered an "off-grid"
application which voids their warrenty. As I am installing under the
California CSI program, I am required to provide a 10 year manufacture
equipment warranty so I cannot afford to install the inverters in a
dis-allowed manner.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">2
- Enphase states that the waveform of the generator may be "clean"
enough such that the inverter may attempt to syncornize and connect to
it as if it were the utility. If this were to happen Enphase believes
the inverters will ruin the generator regulator before the generator
ruin the inverter. I don't want to be the one to run the experiment to
find out which would be which.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif; color: blue;">3
- I considered a contactor on the output of the inverters, such that
the inverters would isolated by a loss of line voltage, requiring some
form of reset. Ulitmately my customer agreed with me that this was an
undesirable constraint on the operation of an otherwise reliable
grid-tied system and it was not clear that this would satify the
warranty issue.</span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Mark
Frye</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Berkeley
Solar Electric Systems</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">303
Redbud Way</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">Nevada
City, CA 95959</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">(530)
401-8024</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.berkeleysolar.com/"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;"><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;">www.berkeleysolar.com</span></a><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial,sans-serif;"> </span><o:p></o:p></div>
<div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"> <o:p></o:p></div>
</div>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black; text-align: center;"
align="center">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"></div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma,sans-serif;"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>]<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Eric Thomas<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Saturday,
March 26, 2011 2:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[RE-wrenches]
Generator and Enphase</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman',serif; color: black;">I
have a customer with a "30A Mechanically Interlocked Breaker" for their
generator feed at the main panel. My question is: If the home power is
transferred from utility to generator power, will the backfed PV see
the generator as grid power and sync up and produce? This is a nice
Honda Generator so the power should be fairly clean. Any experiences
are appreciated.<br>
<br>
Take Care,<br>
<br>
<br>
Eric Thomas<br>
Solar Epiphany LLC<br>
(206) 919-3014<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.solarepiphany.com/"
target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;">www.solarepiphany.com</a><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></div>
<pre
style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; color: black;"><o:p> </o:p></pre>
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