<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"> This is very interesting. I think a lot of us already oversize inverters to reduce wear and tear, and to operate the inverter closer to its peak efficiency. This is another good reason.<br> What will it take to get more data on this subject. What percentage of the annual radiation is occuring over 1000 w/m^2 in our local regions? Who is collecting 1 minute data?<br> If we could capture .5% of the annual power on a 5 KW AC system, and the system cost $42,000. That would be valued about $210 upfront, but even more over the life of the system. That increased value would just pay for the increased cost of the inverter. It is probably a smart decision, as long as the increased inverter size doesn't increase the
system cost significantly, by requiring a supply side tap, a service panel upgrade, or other major upgrades to the system..<br><div> </div>Nick Soleil<br>Project Manager<br>Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC<br>PO Box 657<br>Petaluma, CA 94953<br>Cell: 707-321-2937<br>Office: 707-789-9537<br>Fax: 707-769-9037<div><br></div><div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><br><div style="font-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"><font face="Tahoma" size="2"><hr size="1"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Bill Brooks <billbrooks7@yahoo.com><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wed, January 19, 2011 4:33:00 PM<br><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing<br></font><br>
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--></style><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">David,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Good question, but difficult to answer. The basic rule in electronics is that every 10C hotter that we run something continuously, the overall life is cut in half. Conversely, if we run inverters cooler, they should last longer. The difficult question is how much to oversize the inverter to get a 10C temperature drop continuously. Not easy to answer. Also, heat is not the only killer of an inverter. Line surges and lightning surges are probably bigger inverter killers. And then there is engineering design. More inverters have died prematurely for
design and quality control reasons than any other failure type.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The final answer is 42.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Palumbo<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:55 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In addition to power production losses due to arrays that are oversized for the inverter
(although within manufacturers specs) how concerned should we be with shorter inverter service life because the inverter is working at its maximum?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">David Palumbo</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Independent Power LLC </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">462 Solar Way Drive</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hyde Park, VT 05655<b></b></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><b><i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif";
color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a target="_blank" href="http://www.independentpowerllc.com">www.independentpowerllc.com</a> </span></i></b></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">NABCEP Certified PV Installer</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Vermont Solar Partner</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Brooks<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 19, 2011 6:20 PM<br><b>To:</b> 'RE-wrenches'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kent,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The article that David Brearley cited is a very good discussion on this subject. It clearly shows the under-prediction of losses due to hitting the inverter peak power capability when using longer-term data. This study was done by the Fraunhofer Institute in southern Germany. They get a lot more clouds there so the results might be comparable to some of the more cloudy regions of the United States. I would expect the results to be worse in much of the U.S. that gets clouds and higher irradiation than Freiburg. However, the results will definitely be less for much of California since clouds don’t happen for sections of the year. </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It all matters where you are.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Great discussion.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: rgb(181, 196, 223) -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in
0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Osterberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 19, 2011 1:41 PM<br><b>To:</b> RE-wrenches<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">Bill,<br><br>The data are 15 minute averages so I'm sure that some edge of cloud events are washed out in the average. The energy they contributed was in the total measurement, but wouldn't have been included in my sum of clipped output. Observing the data, you can see some edge of cloud effects despite the 15 minute averaging. And on many days I suspect there is edge of cloud effect that wouldn't
have hit the clipping limit too. Obviously, missing some short interval events biases the results a little but probably not by very much. For the sake of argument assume that there was a 3 minute, spike in output 100-watts above my threshold setting. In the 15-minute average that still would have been a 20-watt bump and with 10-watt data resolution, it probably would have showed up, but say it didn't show up or that it end up just below the threshold. Say this happened once every week, not likely, but if it did the missed data would amount to 0.25 kWhr or about 5% as much as the total observed with the data clipped at 800 watts. So you have to really stretch the brief edge of cloud argument to integrate enough energy to throw my graph off by very much.<br><br>Kent Osterberg<br>Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.<br><br><br><br>Bill Brooks wrote: </p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family:
"sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kent,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">How often were your data records? To capture edge of cloud effects, you need one-second data. Not many people gather that fast or that much data on inverters. I don’t think there is that much energy in these spikes, but they are real and make some difference. 15-minute average data will completely wash out this data.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">This is also a deficiency in modeling software since most models are using
hourly data.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Bill.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></p><div><div style="border-width: 1pt medium medium; border-style: solid none none; border-color: windowtext -moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: "sans-serif"; color: windowtext;"> <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a> [<a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Kent Osterberg<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, January 18, 2011 1:18 PM<br><b>To:</b> Wrenches; Marco Mangelsdorf<br><b>Subject:</b> [RE-wrenches] Inverter oversizing</span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><br>Attached is a graph that I produced to document the effect of various ratios between the PV array size and the inverter size. I extracted output power data for a 1020-watt system located in NE Oregon that is on the <a rel="nofollow" target="_blank"
href="http://www.sunnyportal.com/Templates/PublicPageOverview.aspx?page=85820a73-a347-48fb-b8d1-92e5f9b78ab3&plant=608681a7-ef60-4edb-84ff-07110db0ab6a&splang=en-US">Sunny Portal</a>. The data are publicly accessible so feel free to run your own analysis. Better yet, analyze the data for a system near you. <br><br>Using 2009 data, I looked at how much energy would have been lost if the output was clipped at 800W, 810W, .... 1020W. I used 2009 data because there was a period in 2010 when the Sunny Webbox didn't have internet access. At 800 watts, power clipping would have happened on about 25% of the days. Yet the energy that would have been lost was only 0.38% of the annual total. <br><br>The results shown on this graph aren't universal, results would be a little different in 2010, it would be different in some other climate, it would have been different at another elevation, it would be different with a
different array angle, ..., and the module tolerance and inverter efficiency also effect the results. Modules in this system are Suntech 170-watt +/-3%. The inverter is Sunnyboy 1800 that should be operating at close to 93% efficiency.<br><br>Kent Osterberg<br>Blue Mountain Solar. Inc.</p><pre> </pre><pre style="text-align: center;"><hr width="90%" align="center" size="4"></pre><pre> </pre><pre>_______________________________________________</pre><pre>List sponsored by Home Power magazine</pre><pre> </pre><pre>List Address: <a rel="nofollow" ymailto="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a></pre><pre> </pre><pre>Options & settings:</pre><pre><span><a target="_blank"
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