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<DIV>Never underestimate how bad an old system can be.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In the past we have seen systems – including those done by “solar
companies” – where part of the battery bank was not even wired in to the
system.</DIV>
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=solarwrench@asis.com
href="mailto:solarwrench@asis.com">Kelly Larson</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, January 13, 2011 12:57 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Freezing (was
Trace...)</DIV></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>"Warning: those old DIY setups quickly become a can of worms, the further
you dig into them. Don't assume anything was done
right."</DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV>...Including checking the polarity of every wire! Who
knows what the color meant to the last guy.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And don't just mess with a few things and leave it. That customer is
sure to have more problems and you were the last to touch it. (God forbid
if they have an electrical fire.) Tell them it will take time to fix the
mess. Make yourself a wiring diagram following every
wire. This will take some customer investment, but result in a
working system and happy customer.<BR>
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<DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline>Blessings,</DIV>
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<DIV>Kelly</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Kelly Larson</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Box 104<BR>Piercy, CA 95587<BR>707-223-3209<BR>Electrical Engineer</DIV>
<DIV>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer</DIV>
<DIV>ISPQ Master Trainer<BR>CA C-10 # 868189</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:SolarKelly@asis.com">SolarKelly@asis.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of
power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we
tackle that." <SPAN style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"
class=Apple-tab-span></SPAN>~ Thomas Edison</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline></SPAN><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline></DIV></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Dec 29, 2010, at 10:59 AM, R Ray Walters wrote:</DIV><BR
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<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Jay;
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I've saved a few sets from freezing, different manufacturers' cases are
stronger than others. (ie, A Trojan T105 can take more stress than something
from Sam's Club.)
<DIV>FIrst I make sure they're less than 5 years old.</DIV>
<DIV>Then, I warm them backup (portable propane heater, very well vented area,
no current flow in or out)</DIV>
<DIV>3rd, See if any are leaking</DIV>
<DIV>4th, Charge them with the caps off, monitoring voltage, current,
temperature, and bubbling action.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Jesse;</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Your eyes and health are not worth risking to save those old things; 12
years is a fairly respectable lifespan in a poorly setup system. </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I think to continue to work with those batteries is inviting danger
(everyone's recent explosion stories?)</DIV>
<DIV>All those problems were caused by shorting plates, and other
malfunctions, usually only seen in old batteries.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Batteries only freeze when completely abused. The inverter probably was
shutting off all the time from low voltage, and they had DC loads dragging it
down even lower.</DIV>
<DIV>The recent string on battery temperature management should be applied in
this case too. I've seen poorly designed venting, freeze batteries right next
to it, while the batteries on the inside</DIV>
<DIV>were warm.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I agree with Allan's assessment: this set is toast, and considering this
is the worst time of year to not have a good battery set, I'd take care of
that lady, and get her into a fresh set, ASAP.</DIV>
<DIV>This is also a chance to do some needed rewiring of the system.</DIV>
<DIV>Warning: those old DIY setups quickly become a can of worms, the further
you dig into them. Don't assume anything was done right.</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV>R. Walters</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:ray@solarray.com">ray@solarray.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>Solar Engineer</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR class=Apple-interchange-newline></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Dec 29, 2010, at 9:16 AM, jay peltz wrote:</DIV><BR
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<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space">I'd
like to go back to the freezing battery part as I don't live in real
freezing territory.
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>How could they actually freeze and not destroy the housing, internal
plate structure and in the end work at all?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>jay</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>[<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>]<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B>On Behalf Of<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B>Allan
Sindelar<BR><B>Sent:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Wednesday, December 29, 2010
10:41 AM<BR><B>To:</B><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue"
href="mailto:dahlsolar@gmail.com">dahlsolar@gmail.com</A>;
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace inverters
undercharging batteries.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p> </DIV>
<P
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal>Jesse,<BR>Don't waste your time on those batteries; they
are all toast. Don't replace them with the same; four strings is poor
design. Read the article about off-grid batteries in the current Home
Power, and then sell the customer a set of 12 (or 24; either one string or
two is OK) 2V industrial cells, such as HUPs from Northwest Energy Storage
or K-series Surrettes. Size unknown. The existing full bank was 1400 A/hr
if the cell cases had black covers, 1600 A/hr if the tops are blue, to
give you an idea.<BR><BR>BP modules from 1998 would have most likely been
12V 75W or 85W, meaning 900-1000 watts; too small an array for that size
battery bank if the home is used full-time; OK for a seasonal or weekend
cabin.<BR><BR>Only with new batteries can you even tell what the inverters
are doing. My hunch is that the inverters aren't at fault. However, given
the poor quality of the original installation, they likely are set to
default setpoints, which can charge at a very high rate (about 220A at
28.8V for two if the gennie is big enough) but won't get batteries full
(and can't equalize them), as the default setpoints are too low. And I'll
bet dollars to doughnuts the default setpoints are in place, as the
inverters have been shut down sometime in the last 12 years, losing any
original programming settings.<BR><BR>You might see about getting an
experienced off-gridder in your frozen region to work with you. Maybe
Darryl could consult now, then make one trip out to set up the system once
the new batteries are in. This was the classic late-90s system with a
later charge controller upgrade, but if you have never worked with this
equipment, you're likely to set it up for a repeat failure years down the
road.<BR><BR>Just read Jamie's post - while his advice is spot on, of
course, you need to decide if it's worth your while. I'd be more inclined
to try his approach if the battery bank was three years old, not 12.
That's a huge amount of time spent, working with acid and an unknown set
of hazards, with at best the possibility of a few years' use. I'd suggest
that unless it's your father-in-law's cabin, and you value the chance to
hang out there for a week, it's not worth your time or the customer's,
especially given that you acknowledge having little off-grid
experience.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR>Allan<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><SPAN
class=il><B>Allan</B></SPAN><B><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Sindelar</B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com" target=_blank><SPAN
class=il><U>Allan</U></SPAN><U>@positiveenergysolar.com</U></A><BR>NABCEP
Certified Photovoltaic Installer<BR>EE98J Journeyman
Electrician<BR><B>Positive Energy, Inc.</B><BR>3201 Calle Marie<BR>Santa
Fe, New Mexico 87507<BR><B>505 424-1112</B><BR><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/"
target=_blank><U>www.positiveenergysolar.com</U></A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
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style="FONT-SIZE: 16px"
class=Apple-style-span><BR></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
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