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<DIV>To be honest, I cannot think of any reason ever to replace the electrolyte
in a battery except to replace spillage. If the batteries got to the slush or
freezing point at less than –10F or so, they probably already had problems with
charging.</DIV>
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style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">
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<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=jay@asis.com
href="mailto:jay@asis.com">jay peltz</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:24 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace inverters undercharging
batteries.</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; TEXT-DECORATION: none">Hi
Jamie,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Would slushy electrolyte be an problem for a battery?</DIV>
<DIV>Would this call for replacing the electrolyte?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>thanks,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>jay</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>peltz power</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Dec 29, 2010, at 8:28 AM, James Surrette wrote:</DIV><BR
class=Apple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; FONT-VARIANT: normal; MARGIN: 4px 4px 1px">
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>Hi
Jay,</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>If
the froze and it was "slushy" will not cause internal damage.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>To
your point, if they freeze solid - this will generally break the grid and
cause internal shorts.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>I
assumed, since the batteries were operational, there is no shorts.</FONT>
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>Per
freezing, here is the chart on freezing points and SG levels;</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>1.280
-92° F (-69° C)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>1.265
-72.3° F (-57° C)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>1.250
-62° F (-52° C)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>1.200
-16° F (-27° C)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>1.150
+5° F (-15° C)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3 face=Arial>1.100
+19° F (-7.2° C)</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3
face=Arial>Regards,</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><FONT size=3
face=Arial>Jamie</FONT><BR><BR>>>> jay peltz <<A
href="mailto:jay@asis.com">jay@asis.com</A>> 12/29/2010 12:16 PM
>>><BR>I'd like to go back to the freezing battery part as I don't
live in real freezing territory. </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px">How could they actually
freeze and not destroy the housing, internal plate structure and in the end
work at all? </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px">thanks, </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px">jay </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"> </DIV></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
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style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</SPAN></SPAN></A><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> </SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]</SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">On
Behalf Of</SPAN><SPAN class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Allan
Sindelar<BR
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><B>Sent:</B></SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Wednesday,
December 29, 2010 10:41 AM<BR
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><B>To:</B></SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN></SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="mailto:dahlsolar@gmail.com"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">dahlsolar@gmail.com</SPAN></SPAN></A><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">;
RE-wrenches<BR
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><B>Subject:</B></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Re:
[RE-wrenches] Trace inverters undercharging batteries.<O
style="FONT-FAMILY: tahoma, sans-serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
p="#DEFAULT"></O></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
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p="#DEFAULT"></O></DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="MARGIN: 0px 0in; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman', serif; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Jesse,<BR>Don't
waste your time on those batteries; they are all toast. Don't replace them
with the same; four strings is poor design. Read the article about off-grid
batteries in the current Home Power, and then sell the customer a set of 12
(or 24; either one string or two is OK) 2V industrial cells, such as HUPs
from Northwest Energy Storage or K-series Surrettes. Size unknown. The
existing full bank was 1400 A/hr if the cell cases had black covers, 1600
A/hr if the tops are blue, to give you an idea.<BR><BR>BP modules from 1998
would have most likely been 12V 75W or 85W, meaning 900-1000 watts; too
small an array for that size battery bank if the home is used full-time; OK
for a seasonal or weekend cabin.<BR><BR>Only with new batteries can you even
tell what the inverters are doing. My hunch is that the inverters aren't at
fault. However, given the poor quality of the original installation, they
likely are set to default setpoints, which can charge at a very high rate
(about 220A at 28.8V for two if the gennie is big enough) but won't get
batteries full (and can't equalize them), as the default setpoints are too
low. And I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the default setpoints are in place,
as the inverters have been shut down sometime in the last 12 years, losing
any original programming settings.<BR><BR>You might see about getting an
experienced off-gridder in your frozen region to work with you. Maybe Darryl
could consult now, then make one trip out to set up the system once the new
batteries are in. This was the classic late-90s system with a later charge
controller upgrade, but if you have never worked with this equipment, you're
likely to set it up for a repeat failure years down the road.<BR><BR>Just
read Jamie's post - while his advice is spot on, of course, you need to
decide if it's worth your while. I'd be more inclined to try his approach if
the battery bank was three years old, not 12. That's a huge amount of time
spent, working with acid and an unknown set of hazards, with at best the
possibility of a few years' use. I'd suggest that unless it's your
father-in-law's cabin, and you value the chance to hang out there for a
week, it's not worth your time or the customer's, especially given that you
acknowledge having little off-grid experience.<SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN><BR><BR>Allan<O p="#DEFAULT"></O>
</DIV>
<DIV>
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<DIV style="MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px"><B><SPAN
class=il>Allan</SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-converted-space> </SPAN>Sindelar</B><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN class=il><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com" target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Allan</SPAN></U></A></SPAN><A
style="COLOR: blue" href="mailto:Allan@positiveenergysolar.com"
target=_blank><U><SPAN style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">@positiveenergysolar.com</SPAN></SPAN></U></A><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer<BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">EE98J Journeyman Electrician<BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><B>Positive Energy, Inc.</B><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">3201 Calle Marie<BR style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Santa
Fe, New Mexico 87507<BR style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><B>505 424-1112</B><BR
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"></SPAN><A style="COLOR: blue"
href="http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/" target=_blank><U><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">www.positiveenergysolar.com</SPAN></U></A></SPAN><O
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