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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Insuating batteries does not have to be
complicated. Several years ago, a Minnesota man (can't
recall his name) who worked for the Jacobs brothers at their Wind
Electric Company in the 1930's told me how he insulated his glass case
Edison cells. He kept his battery bank outdoors on boards and covered
with a tarp. Before the first snow, he would heap a big pile of
loose hay on the tarp and then cover the whole hay pile and batteries with
another tarp. Between winter storms he would lift the tarps and hay to
check his batteries and add water if needed. He said he stored his potatoes and
other root crops that didn't fit in his root cellar the same way. He and
other old-timer in Massachusetts who also had Edison cells told me that they
would dump out the electrolyte every 5 years and clean the jars and plates with
plain water and add fresh electrolyte. The gentleman in Massachusetts bought his
batteries from Mr. Edison in 1935 and was still using them in the early 1980s
when he bought Arco ASI 16-2000 modules. Sensible people. Simpler
times.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Joel Davidson</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=dana@solarwork.com href="mailto:dana@solarwork.com">Dana</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">'RE-wrenches'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 12, 2010 3:13
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [RE-wrenches] To insulate a
battery bank DEPENDS on a lot offactors.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Great
discussion and Thanks to all of you for the input.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">I thought
of attempting a wrap up of the various presentations but there are and
always will be many variables in battery storage and insulation requirements.
Here are my thoughts and a distillation from you all with respect to my high
elevation climate in W. CO. - 6 months of winter and cool nights in summer
[typically].<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Type of
battery - Wet VS. Sealed batteries. : depends on size and usage of system and
client choice.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Climates –
4 season with 5-6 months of winter like conditions VS. a mild year round
costal climate. : A long winter climate can seriously chill a poorly insulated
bank and therefore reduce capacity when the bank get cold. I get more calls
each Nov. from new to off grid folks with an under sized array and cold
battery bank about reduced capacity.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Does it
cool off at night in the summer? VS. It is hot 24/7 for 4
months?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Size of
bank – Small VS. Large. : Smaller reacts more quickly to a cooling or heating
trend VS. Larger react slowly.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Ambient
building temperature. – heated building VS. walled in shed/free standing
battery box in a snowy scenario. : If I can put the bank on a temperature
controlled radiant concrete slab I do so.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Ability to
sink the battery bank into the ground VS. not being able to do so. :
installation & cost can be a challenge here.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Powered
venting VS. convective venting ; Powered with a back draft damper seems
to be a better option in winter climates. I have used the Zephyr Industries
powered vent with backdraft damper for many years with great
success.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">As
mentioned batteries are an electrochemical unit that requires, like us, a
narrow window for temperature to exist and operate efficiently. When working
hardest, typically during winter, the recharge requirements are high and the
hours of sunlight are low, therefore the temperature window is best on the
warmer end of the range. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">The time
of year when power requirement can be lowest in summer, the usage is lower due
to long days and lack of heating systems drawing them down over night, unless
you are irrigating and perhaps a PV direct design would then be
best.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Thanks
all.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Dana
Orzel<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Great Solar Works,
Inc<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">E
- dana@solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">V
- 970.626.5253<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">F
- 970.626.4140<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">C
- 970.209.4076<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">web -
www.solarwork.com<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">"Responsible Technologies
for Responsible People since 1988"</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'">Do
not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through
action.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Century Gothic','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joel
Davidson<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, December 12, 2010 11:59 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] To insulate a battery bank --
sort of<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">First of all, there
is no one solution to battery selection, installation, operation, and
maintenance. One size does not fit all. Allan and other wrenches
with lots of battery experience have a good understanding
about batteries in their regions for their
customers.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Second, insulation
is used to control temperature change. Insulation slows both heat loss and
gain. Large battery banks tend to change temperature slowly due to their mass
and may not need insulation in your region or in a specific installation. The
goal is to keep the battery bank at its optimum temperature. Cold
batteries have reduced capacity. 40 F (4.4 C) is too cold for almost all RE
system batteries. Hot batteries have shorter lives. Heat affects both battery
chemistry and materials. For example, the plastic around
Absolyte terminals cracks if their temperature is repeatedly 90 F
(32.2 C) which can happen in an uninsulated battery area in the
southwest U.S. So too hot or too cold is not good.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Third, batteries
need ventilation to safely remove hydrogen. Surprisingly, what most people
consider a small amount of battery ventilation will suffice unless
the battery bank is being charged excessively. For example, a PV system with
eight 100 watt modules (rated 17.1 V, 5.88 A) and sixteen 6-volt batteries is
wired for 24 volts DC. The required venting is 0.0135 x (5.88 x 4) x 12 = 3.81
CFM or 228.6 cubic feet per hour. Many, if not most, rooms are 8 feet in
height with 2 air changes per hour. A room 8’ x 6’ x 6’ has 288 cubic feet
volume and naturally vents 576 cubic feet per hour, almost 2.5 times the
required 288.6 cubic feet per hour.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">In general, a
battery area, room, box, etc. should be kept at 70 F (21.1 C),
have good ventilation, no open flames (heater, gas water heater nearby?),
no electrical sparks (automatic igniters, etc.?), easy to maintain and
inspect, tidy, out of reach of non-authorized personnel, and have an
up-to-date fire extinguisher handy.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Batteries operate
by electro-chemical process almost like living things. If they are too hot or
too cold, they perform poorly and can die. If they are not fed properly
(charged correctly), they will die. Interestingly, we use expressions like
"die" and "end of life" to describe these non-living things.
Most wrenches know people who party all weekend, don't eat
well, forget to dress properly for the weather, and get
sick. Likewise, if a battery bank is deeply discharged, not
properly recharged, and too hot or too cold, it will perform poorly
and die prematurely. You get the
picture.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Lastly, we have
learned a lot about batteries in the 200 year since physicist,
Allessandro Volta, developed the first cells. Unfortunately, a lot of battery
myths exist. Explode myths (but not batteries) by asking the "5 whys". See <A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_Whys</A></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Joel
Davidson</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN: 5pt 0in 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0in">
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=dan@foxfire-energy.com
href="mailto:dan@foxfire-energy.com">dan@foxfire-energy.com</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Saturday,
December 11, 2010 5:32 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re:
[RE-wrenches] To insulate a battery bank -- sort
of<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Ok,
I'm a little reluctant to kick this critter much.. because I feel like I
must be missing something here... but let me float this notion.. If we stuff
flammable gas producing batteries in an enclosure (and proceed to button
them up tighter than a bull's ass in fly season -- fan or no fan), Haven't
we just created a Class I Division 1 location? (NEC 500.5). then say
we do rely on a $4. fan (OK -- $15.) to declassify as allowed in
500.5(A)fpn, Wouldn't we still have a Class I Division 2 location? NEC
500.5(B)(2)(2)/(3). So my point is -- are fully enclosed battery boxes
really worth the hassle? are they even A good idea? I can't seem to find
where NFPA 70 "Requires" a battery enclosure.. 690 VIII says you need
to protect electrical connections (in dwellings) and kicks you back to 480,
but makes no mention of "requiring" a battery enclosure.. 480.8 says
basically that if you use racks or trays, they've got to hold up. 480.9
outlines ventilation and working space, but again doesn't "require"
enclosures. (480.6 deals with Insulation of batteries.. But I'm thinking
they're talking about electrical insulation)... But nowhere in the NEC have
I found any mention of battery boxes or Enclosures being "Required"..
On the contrary, Seems to me they're suggesting that if by design you can
provide for proper work space, adequate ventilation (both out and in) and
protect the electrical connections, you're good as far as NEC is concerned..
In NFPA 70E, (Workplace Safety) 320.4 says batteries should be under lock
and key (or require a tool for access), and that they be protected both
physically and electrically. also in NFPA 70E, 320.6 kicks around
enclosure requirements some, but seems to focus more on protecting terminals
and related equipment.. Now in OSHA 1926 (Subpart K), .441 seems to be
where "required enclosures" originates, but again, it seems to be referring
to commercial workplace safety... (i.e. also requires that "the charging
apparatus be protected from damage by trucks" and "eye wash stations be
provided within 25 feet" etc.).. I'll will tell you the majority of the
failed / scummed out battery banks I've dealt with have been from poor
ventilation, poor maintenance or defective / improperly designed or
installed battery boxes.. If I can, one of the first remedy's I apply is to
drill several large holes (and staple some kind of critter proofing over the
holes from the inside). -or- if I can gracefully, I'll remove the sides
altogether -- as long as the electrical connections are protected. also if I
can, I try to find a way to route exhaust gases so they vent naturally -- so
they don't rely solely on a vent fan... like maybe run 2" PVC up thru the
roof -- inside the envelope of the house. at least try to make sure the fan
is not competing with the furnace or exhaust systems... (like insure there's
an adequate intake air supply for the whole house)... as for
protecting batteries from fluctuating temps.. the planet (some three feet
down anyway) stays just over 48 degrees.. at least in these parts..
Just saying.. db<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><BR>Dan
Brown<BR>Foxfire Energy Corp.<BR>Renewable Energy
Systems<BR>(802)-483-2564<BR><A
href="http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com">www.Foxfire-Energy.com</A><BR>NABCEP
#092907-44<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-LEFT: 0.5in" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
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