<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=us-ascii" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 8.00.6001.18975"></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Dana,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Connection anywhere "above" any of the six service
disconnects is considered a supply-side tap. One problem with
connecting there is that your new number of service disconnects would be seven.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Connecting to the lower 100A bus fed with a 60A "main" is the
most code compliant in theory. The 60A is the main for the purposes of your
installation. The other side of the main is the utility. Whether the upper
section has an amperage rating or not is moot. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>You still have to make a determination of suitability with
regard to breakers, age, condition, etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010><FONT color=#0000ff
size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=328295803-02112010></SPAN><FONT
face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2>M<SPAN class=328295803-02112010>att
Lafferty</SPAN><SPAN class=328295803-02112010> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Dana
Brandt<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 01, 2010 6:55 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] backfeeding "six disconnect"
panel<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>Hi everyone,<BR><BR>I just noticed my last email didn't go through
because I'd attached pictures of the panel. If you're interested in the pics of
the panel please contact me off-list. <BR><BR>Thanks for the feedback. To
clarify, the upper part of the bus is lug-fed directly from the service meter -
no overcurrent protection. I have this same situation in two homes - one has a
Bryant panel, not sure about the other. <BR><BR>It seems possible connecting to
the top bus could be considered a supply side connection. It's done through a
panel bus, though, which seems like maybe it wouldn't qualify.<BR><BR>It's true
that the 60A breaker feeding the 100A bus fulfills the calculation requirements.
However, the calculation has to follow upstream to the bus supplying that 60A
breaker, so again we have a potential problem since there's no overcurrent
protection for that bus.<BR><BR>So, it seems the real question is about that top
bus. Can we consider a connection there a supply side tap? If not, who do we do
the 690.64 (B) (2) calculation without a main breaker? <BR><BR>Thanks!<BR
clear=all><BR>Dana<BR><BR>Dana Brandt<BR>Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC<BR><A
href="http://www.ecotechenergy.com">www.ecotechenergy.com</A><BR><A
href="mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com">dana@ecotechenergy.com</A><BR>360.510.0433<BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:37 PM, Matt Lafferty <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:gilligan06@gmail.com">gilligan06@gmail.com</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Hi
Dana,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>"Sounds
like" you have a lower-bus rated at 100A being fed by a 60A breaker...
Yes?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>If so,
technically speaking but not necessarily the right thing to do, you have a
SWEET SETUP! In 690.64 terms, you are legally allowed 120A to feed that bus.
Which converts to a maximum 60A PV interconnection breaker located at the
opposite end of the bus from the 60A supply breaker. This is a panel
configuration that I have wished was still made for many years.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>The
downside is... It's probably older than me. With really wimpy buses. And
really bad options for replacement breakers. And is full of 2-wire homerun
circuits. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>If it
doesn't have a perfect-in-every-way bus, it's time for a new panel. You
also need to be able to buy <SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>real... Modern.... And New UL Listed breakers. Those gray looking
replacement breakers in the home improvement store? They're NOT OK. In any
way.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>Wadsworth? FPE? Bulldog? &...??? These panels are NOT OK
for interconnection at this point. Time to upgrade. Yes, really.
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>Zinsco?
Depends. Any panel with signs of arcing around the bus anywhere? Better have a
damned good explanation before I'd be tying in some PV. I know of a couple.
Warped breakers? Change it!</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>I
just got done doing a 90% rewire on a friend's house and it tore my heart out
sending the panel to the recycler.<I> (This friend is into long-term thinking
and sustainable everything. I would have left it if I could and so would
they.) </I><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>The bus was
pristine. It is rumored that Al Capone used to stay in this place when he
was in the area. The panel was giant, with lots of room. This panel had a
coolness factor off the charts. But...
I</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN> couldn't reliably get trustworthy breakers. And it was
my friend's house. Somebody I care about. I couldn't leave it in there. I use
the same judgement whether my customer is a friend or
not.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>If what you have is a modern panel,
share! I know I would personally appreciate it if you were able to
share mfr, model, pictures, etc. Whenever we are upgrading/swapping/moving a
service panel, we need to be installing something that provides the best
opportunity for interconnection of distributed resources. We don't have those
at this point. And we need them. A split-distribution <I>(not just
split-bus)</I> service panel is one way to accomplish this. The trick is to
limit the possible size of the breaker feeding the "2nd" bus <I>(the lower bus
in this case).</I> It's not rocket science. </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>I'd
be happy to use and publicize a product that a mainstream manufacturer came up
with to deal with this. How about you? </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>$0.02001,</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>Solar Janitor</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>PS -
Home rewiring for friends only. I love doing it, but I do it for love. There
ain't no amount of money that makes me want to do it just for
money!</SPAN></FONT></SPAN>
<HR>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dana Brandt<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 28, 2010 5:19
PM<BR><B>To:</B> RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> [RE-wrenches] backfeeding "six
disconnect" panel<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV></DIV>Hi everyone,<BR><BR>I'm working on two systems for homes that have
the old style breaker panels with no single main breaker. Instead, they have
six breakers in the upper part of the panel each labeled "main breaker," which
satisfies the six disconnect rule. The bus bar is split, with one of the six
upper breakers (60A) feeding a separate bus in the lower half of the panel. It
appears that the upper bus is rated for 200A, and the lower at 100A. The
sum of the main breakers does not exceed the 200A rating of the upper bus.
There are spare breaker slots on both the top and bottom buses. How do I deal
with 690.64 (B) (2) when there's no main breaker? <BR><BR>Thanks!<BR
clear=all><BR>Dana<BR><BR>Dana Brandt<BR>Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC<BR><A
href="http://www.ecotechenergy.com"
target=_blank>www.ecotechenergy.com</A><BR><A
href="mailto:dana@ecotechenergy.com"
target=_blank>dana@ecotechenergy.com</A><BR>360.510.0433<BR>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>List
sponsored by Home Power magazine<BR><BR>List Address: <A
href="mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR><BR>Options
& settings:<BR><A
href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</A><BR><BR>List-Archive:
<A href="http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org</A><BR><BR>List
rules & etiquette:<BR><A href="http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm"
target=_blank>www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm</A><BR><BR>Check out
participant bios:<BR><A href="http://www.members.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>www.members.re-wrenches.org</A><BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR>
<DIV style="VISIBILITY: hidden; LEFT: -5000px" id=avg_ls_inline_popup></DIV>
<STYLE type=text/css>#avg_ls_inline_popup {
Z-INDEX: 9999; POSITION: absolute; TEXT-ALIGN: left; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 130%; MARGIN-TOP: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; WORD-WRAP: break-word; COLOR: black; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10px; OVERFLOW: hidden; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
</STYLE>
</BODY></HTML>