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<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>Phil hits the nail on the
head, it sounds like we've both been down this road. Problem is it's not always
as simple as asking the roofers to do their job your way when you are not
signing their paycheck.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>I contracted a metal roof
PV installation a few years back but only got the job on the condition, by the
very fastidious homeowner, that I could verify that the installation
won't cause leaks or void the warranty on the <2 year old roof. He gave me
the roofers name and the roofing product and mfgr. I researched the
manufacturers installation requirements for our inland climate. Then I called
the roofer and asked if the 16" wide panels were installed per the mfgrs specs.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>He proceeded to go
ballistic, telling me that if I put one module on 'his' roof he would void the
warranty. Even after sending him links to the S5 engineering test results
he refused to even talk to me. Finally the customer had to have a long
talk with the guy before he was convinced his roof had been installed
correctly. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>Bottom line you cannot ever
be certain about the quality of the installation by someone else.
Besides, the homeowners insurance company will have the last word
on whether a PV mounted roof, found across the street after a
windstorm, was installed right or not. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>CYA</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>Jim
Duncan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma
size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Phil
Undercuffler<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 21, 2010 10:29 PM<BR><B>To:</B>
RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready
roof<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=2><FONT
face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif>There is a big difference between standing
seam metal roofs and surface screwed metal roofs. With surface screwed
(aka ProPanel or Ag Panel), screws penetrate through the roof skin and rely
upon a neoprene gasket under a cupped </FONT></FONT><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">washer to provide the
weather-tight seal. It makes a pretty good seal and I've used it on my
own home, but I don't think I'd use it in Montana and I sure wouldn't try to
attach PV over it. The days of lagging L feet through the roof deck are
thankfully waning, and there is </SPAN><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">almost no practical way to
use a flashed method of mounting with surface screwed metal.</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">With
standing seam roofs, the metal is formed into long U shaped pans. As each pan
is installed, the roofer nails L shaped "clips" to the deck with one side of
the clip butted up against the latest pan. The next pan
is </FONT><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">butted up against the first,
which captures the clip between the two. The </SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">upward facing legs of the U
(and clip) are then crimped and folded over, locking them together
and </SPAN><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">forming a watertight
seal</SPAN><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">. I had a standing
seam roof on my home in Cincinnati -- eighty years old and still going strong.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">The biggest challenge with
attaching PV to standing seam roofs is not how well the modules are attached
to the skin, but how well the skin is attached to the structure. Read
the archives, but in the end this really comes down to how close the roofer
installed the clips. This is where the 4" that Andrew mentioned comes
into play (seems a little excessive to me, but what the heck, I'm not a
roofing dude and this isn't something you want to do twice). </SPAN><SPAN
class=Apple-style-span style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">The
dream scenario part comes in when you realize that YOU get to drive the bus on
how closely the clips are installed, as opposed to being presented with a roof
where you have no idea how many clips were used, what the spacing is, or even
whether nails or screws or bubble gum were used to connect them to the deck.
The folks that make the S-5 clamp know metal roofs, and they can help
you determine what spacing works for your application. Get that into the
contract, and make sure someone is on site providing oversight when the roof
is installed.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">As far as some of the other
options which were presented -- yes, lagging into engineered I-beams is
probably not a good idea without checking with the manufacturer,
but </SPAN><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">adding a second layer of ply
doesn't suddenly make a structural base for lag screws. Lag screw
pull-out resistance is provided by inches of thread embedded into solid wood,
and shiners (fasteners that poke through the deck into the attic space) won't
give any real strength. If it's really 1/2" ply, adding a layer of 3/4 ply
would give you 1-1/4" of "wood" -- do the math and see if that's enough for
your climate. Adding 2x blocking would be an option if you have access to the
attic, but you need to make sure the loads transfer to the rafters (I-beams),
rather than concentrate on the deck. Nailing the blocking would be fine
-- after all, that's how houses are built. Lagging the blocking as
suggested by someone earlier, however, will not only be insanely difficult but
risk splitting the top chord of the beam. If you split that, I would
immediately stop what you're doing and consult with the I-beam manufacturer.
Big liability moment there.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=Apple-style-span
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif">But I'd avoid all that lags,
nails, plywood and blocking entirely, put on a standing seam metal roof with
adequate clips and install the PV with S-5 clamps.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT
face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif>My
.02</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif><BR
clear=all></FONT></FONT>Phil Undercuffler
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="arial, sans-serif"><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:52 AM, benn kilburn <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca">benn@daystarsolar.ca</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid">
<DIV>andrew,
<DIV>a few comments added to your last email...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px! important; PADDING-LEFT: 0px! important; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px! important; MARGIN: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important; PADDING-TOP: 0px! important">You
Wrote.... </P>
<P
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px! important; PADDING-LEFT: 0px! important; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px! important; MARGIN: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important; PADDING-TOP: 0px! important">If
you ask me this is a dream scenario. The scary thing about S-5!s is
that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the
decking and how well the decking is attached to the framing. <FONT
color=#0070c0>i'm not overly familiar with standing seam metal roofs (and i
know they are not all created equal) but aren't the screws holding the metal
roof panel to the decking visible at the bottom, at the top under the vent
cap and anywhere along the length of said panel? i agree about the
'unknown' attachments btwn the decking and the
framing </FONT> In this case you can direct the roofer to
fasten the roof as often as you want. I had a PE do an analysis for a
sure-fire acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90
mph wind zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array
(modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if the
roofing panels are fastened every 4" along each seam you are in the clear.
<FONT color=#0070c0>No doubt, that seems like quite a few
fasteners.</FONT> He did not address the decking-to-framing
attachment, <FONT color=#0070c0>So worst case scenario, you get a 90+ mph
wind that takes the array, the metal roof <U>and the decking</U> for a
ride to the ground,</FONT><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,112,192)"> (HAS
ANYONE SEEN OR HAD THIS HAPPEN?) </SPAN><FONT color=#0070c0>when it is
determined that the decking wasn't properly attached to the framing, who do
ya call? PV installer, PE who stamped it, roofer? I'm not
looking for a place to point fingers, I'm just looking for some insight on
this so i understand our responsibilities a bit better. I realize that
it would be onerous to confirm the number and placement of decking to
framing attachments) </FONT>but while the roof is off you could add as
many fasteners as you want. If the structure of the roof is in
question I would definitely have a PE look at it and stamp the plans before
proceeding, but once you have everything under the roof robust and approved,
you are primed and ready for a worry-free, penetration-free
S-5!-to-standing-seam array install.</P>
<DIV class=im>
<P
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px! important; PADDING-LEFT: 0px! important; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px! important; MARGIN: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important; PADDING-TOP: 0px! important">In
another email string someone mentioned issues with S-5!s slipping down the
roof due to snow which is why I recommend attaching at every seam and
breaking out that torque-wrench when installing. <BR
style="TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important"></P>
<P
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px! important; PADDING-LEFT: 0px! important; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px! important; MARGIN: 0px; TEXT-INDENT: 0px! important; PADDING-TOP: 0px! important">Good
luck!</P></DIV>...end of your msg</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>in response to Kris' suggestion, don't the 2x6's need to be toe-nailed
into the 'rafters' on either side? or in this case toe-nailed into the
beams? which probably wouldn't be much different than the 'inadvisable' lag
bolting into them.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>cheers,</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=im>benn<BR><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,32,96)"><FONT
face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy
Inc. </FONT></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><A
href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca"
target=_blank>benn@daystarsolar.ca</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR>
</DIV>From: <A href="mailto:atruitt@gmail.com"
target=_blank>atruitt@gmail.com</A><BR>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:30:40
-0600<BR>To: <A href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready
roof<BR><BR><BR>If you ask me this is a dream scenario. The scary
thing about S-5!s is that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are
attached to the decking and how well the decking is attached to the
framing. In this case you can direct the roofer to fasten the roof as
often as you want. I had a PE do an analysis for a sure-fire
acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90 mph wind
zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array (modules
to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if the roofing
panels are fastened every 4" along each seam you are in the clear. He
did not address the decking-to-framing attachment, but while the roof is off
you could add as many fasteners as you want. If the structure of the
roof is in question I would definitely have a PE look at it and stamp the
plans before proceeding, but once you have everything under the roof robust
and approved, you are primed and ready for a worry-free, penetration-free
S-5!-to-standing-seam array install.<BR>In another email string someone
mentioned issues with S-5!s slipping down the roof due to snow which is why
I recommend attaching at every seam and breaking out that torque-wrench when
installing. <BR><BR>Good luck!<SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>Andrew Truitt</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>NABCEP Certified PV Installer<SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">™</SPAN> (ID#
032407-66)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>Truitt</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Renewable</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Energy</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">
</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Consulting</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>(202) 486-7507</SPAN><BR><A
href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713"
target=_blank>http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-<SPAN>truitt</SPAN>/8/622/713</A><BR><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,153,0)"><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"></SPAN></SPAN><BR><BR>"Don't
get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to
fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"<BR><BR>~William
McDonough<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Kristopher
Schmid <<A href="mailto:solman@legacysolar.com"
target=_blank>solman@legacysolar.com</A>> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#0000ff>What about screwing in double 2x6s flush
to the roof deck between the beams where your feet will attach and lag
bolting into that? Definitely check with the beam manufacturer
first, though.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Kris</FONT><BR>Legacy Solar<BR>864 Clam Falls
Trail<BR>Frederic, WI 54837<BR>715-653-4295<BR><A
href="mailto:solman@legacysolar.com"
target=_blank>solman@legacysolar.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.legacysolar.com" target=_blank>www.legacysolar.com</A>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Scott McCalmont<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 20,
2010 12:00 AM<BR><B>To:</B> RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof<BR>In general, you shouldn't
drill or cut the flanges on engineered wood beams. I think that
eliminates lag screws into the rafters. They probably wouldn't have the
same pull-out strength as a lag screw into a conventional rafter,
either. <BR><BR>Scott<BR><BR>On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Chris Daum
wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN
style="WORD-SPACING: 0px; FONT: medium Helvetica; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">
<DIV lang=EN-US>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800000><SPAN>Dear Wrenches:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800000><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#800000><SPAN>I
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to upgrade it
to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The rafters
are those (sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2" plywood (and
shingles). What's the best metal roofing you could suggest--and
would you beef up the wood to lag into?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800000><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800000><SPAN>Thanks for all your input.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"
color=#800000><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#800000><SPAN>
<DIV align=left>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=2>Chris
Daum</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080 size=2>Oasis
Montana Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080
size=2>406-777-4309</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080
size=2>406-777-0830 fax</FONT><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#000080
size=3><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>List
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