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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Roof construction knowledge and roofing experience
is essential if you are a solar designer and installer. You or people
you work with must with have roof experience. If you do not have an
experienced roofer in your organization, then you must work closely with an
experienced roofing subcontractor (unless you like getting angry phone calls
when it is raining).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Framing and roofing a standing seam metal roof is
not difficult. There is no need to guess or to ask inexperienced people
what they think should be done. Good suppliers will provide specifications,
instructions, and drawings and put you in touch with experts who can
answer your questions.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>In 1996, I did the Unisolar standing seam roof
at the University of California Irvine campus. See <A
href="http://www.hamcontact.com/unisolar/roofapps.html">http://www.hamcontact.com/unisolar/roofapps.html</A> All
we had was to start with was a 2nd floor deck and a contract with Southern
California Edison (SCE) and the DOE UPVG (Utility Photovoltaic Group now called
SEPA) who cost-shared the 5 kW new roof BIPV
system. Unisolar provided standing seam metal roofing installation
instructions but knew very little about roofing. I
talked with McElroy, the manufacturer of the roofing Unisolar used for
their SSR product. I also visited metal roofing jobsites during
construction to see if anything new had been developed since I last did a metal
roof a few years before. Then I designed the framing, building
attachments, and the PV system and got SCE and Campus approval. I was
concerned about my attachments to the roof deck knee-wall so I asked for the
building structural drawings and really lucked out. The engineer who had
designed the building still worked at his nearby office part-time even
though he was 85 years old. (This old-timer still came to his office in a
suit and tie to share his over 50 years of knowledge, experience, and
wisdom. I love working in the construction industry.) He and I spent 15 minutes
reviewing my design and he gave it his blessing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>When I designed the solar roof, the
University's Combustion Engineering Lab Director said that he might want to
someday enclose the roof deck so we put in metal diagonal straps under the roof
panels to brace the roof. The engineer said this was a good
idea because it strengthened the roof in case of earthquakes.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>The construction went smoothly. We
fastened the ledger and post attachments with lag bolts and attached the
posts, beams and purlins. The SSR panels were laminated at the Unisolar factory
and shipped from Troy, Michigan (a waste of time and money). When we started
fastening the standing seam panels, I had to ask the University lab engineers to
turn off the experimental natural gas fuel cell they were testing on the deck
because the rising heat was cooking us on the roof like grilled hotdogs. We
fastened clips 6 inches from panel ends and also every 12 inches using
self-taping stainless steel screws (over-kill but it went fast). The slowest
work was lapping the 12-feet panels over the 18-feet panels because each
panel's standing seam had to be notched with a sidecutter and fit into
place. The electrical work was conventional. The homerun in conduit went into
the building to a Trace SWODE SW5548 that back-feeds to a 120 VAC breaker
in a subpanel.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>A few years ago, I was on campus so I dropped
by to inspect the system. The deck was enclosed and the space turned into
offices and the Trace inverter was still working like new.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Joel Davidson</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=ntrei@1scom.net href="mailto:ntrei@1scom.net">North Texas Renewable
Energy Inc</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">RE-wrenches</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 22, 2010 7:47
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect
solar ready roof</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>Phil hits the nail on the
head, it sounds like we've both been down this road. Problem is it's not
always as simple as asking the roofers to do their job your way when you are
not signing their paycheck.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>I contracted a metal roof
PV installation a few years back but only got the job on the condition, by the
very fastidious homeowner, that I could verify that the installation
won't cause leaks or void the warranty on the <2 year old roof. He gave me
the roofers name and the roofing product and mfgr. I researched the
manufacturers installation requirements for our inland climate. Then I called
the roofer and asked if the 16" wide panels were installed per the mfgrs
specs. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>He proceeded to go
ballistic, telling me that if I put one module on 'his' roof he would void the
warranty. Even after sending him links to the S5 engineering test results
he refused to even talk to me. Finally the customer had to have a
long talk with the guy before he was convinced his roof had been installed
correctly. </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>Bottom line you cannot
ever be certain about the quality of the installation by
someone else. Besides, the homeowners insurance company
will have the last word on whether a PV mounted roof, found
across the street after a windstorm, was installed right or not.
</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>CYA</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=468492414-22102010><FONT face=Arial>Jim
Duncan</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr class=OutlookMessageHeader align=left><FONT size=2
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Phil
Undercuffler<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 21, 2010 10:29
PM<BR><B>To:</B> RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] The
perfect solar ready roof<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><FONT size=2><FONT
face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif>There is a big difference between standing
seam metal roofs and surface screwed metal roofs. With surface screwed
(aka ProPanel or Ag Panel), screws penetrate through the roof skin and rely
upon a neoprene gasket under a cupped </FONT></FONT><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>washer to provide the weather-tight seal. It
makes a pretty good seal and I've used it on my own home, but I don't think
I'd use it in Montana and I sure wouldn't try to attach PV over it.
The days of lagging L feet through the roof deck are thankfully
waning, and there is </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>almost no practical way to use a flashed method of
mounting with surface screwed metal.</SPAN>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span
face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT class=Apple-style-span face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif">With
standing seam roofs, the metal is formed into long U shaped pans. As each
pan is installed, the roofer nails L shaped "clips" to the deck with one
side of the clip butted up against the latest pan. The next pan
is </FONT><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>butted up against the first, which captures the clip
between the two. The </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>upward facing legs of the U (and clip) are then
crimped and folded over, locking them together and </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>forming a watertight seal</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif" class=Apple-style-span>.
I had a standing seam roof on my home in Cincinnati -- eighty years
old and still going strong. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>The biggest challenge with attaching PV to standing
seam roofs is not how well the modules are attached to the skin, but how
well the skin is attached to the structure. Read the archives, but in
the end this really comes down to how close the roofer installed the clips.
This is where the 4" that Andrew mentioned comes into play (seems a
little excessive to me, but what the heck, I'm not a roofing dude and this
isn't something you want to do twice). </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif" class=Apple-style-span>The
dream scenario part comes in when you realize that YOU get to drive the bus
on how closely the clips are installed, as opposed to being presented with a
roof where you have no idea how many clips were used, what the spacing is,
or even whether nails or screws or bubble gum were used to connect them to
the deck. The folks that make the S-5 clamp know metal roofs, and they
can help you determine what spacing works for your application. Get
that into the contract, and make sure someone is on site providing oversight
when the roof is installed.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>As far as some of the other options which were
presented -- yes, lagging into engineered I-beams is probably not a good
idea without checking with the manufacturer, but </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>adding a second layer of ply doesn't suddenly make a
structural base for lag screws. Lag screw pull-out resistance is
provided by inches of thread embedded into solid wood, and shiners
(fasteners that poke through the deck into the attic space) won't give any
real strength. If it's really 1/2" ply, adding a layer of 3/4 ply would give
you 1-1/4" of "wood" -- do the math and see if that's enough for your
climate. Adding 2x blocking would be an option if you have access to the
attic, but you need to make sure the loads transfer to the rafters
(I-beams), rather than concentrate on the deck. Nailing the blocking
would be fine -- after all, that's how houses are built. Lagging the
blocking as suggested by someone earlier, however, will not only be insanely
difficult but risk splitting the top chord of the beam. If you split
that, I would immediately stop what you're doing and consult with the I-beam
manufacturer. Big liability moment there.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica, sans-serif"
class=Apple-style-span>But I'd avoid all that lags, nails, plywood and
blocking entirely, put on a standing seam metal roof with adequate clips and
install the PV with S-5 clamps.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT
face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif>My
.02</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=arial,helvetica,sans-serif><BR
clear=all></FONT></FONT>Phil Undercuffler
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="arial, sans-serif"><SPAN
style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><BR></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 11:52 AM, benn kilburn <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca">benn@daystarsolar.ca</A>></SPAN>
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV>andrew,
<DIV>a few comments added to your last email...</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px !important; TEXT-INDENT: 0px !important; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px !important; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px !important; PADDING-TOP: 0px !important">You
Wrote.... </P>
<P
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px !important; TEXT-INDENT: 0px !important; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px !important; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px !important; PADDING-TOP: 0px !important">If
you ask me this is a dream scenario. The scary thing about S-5!s is
that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are attached to the
decking and how well the decking is attached to the framing. <FONT
color=#0070c0>i'm not overly familiar with standing seam metal roofs (and
i know they are not all created equal) but aren't the screws holding the
metal roof panel to the decking visible at the bottom, at the top under
the vent cap and anywhere along the length of said panel? i agree
about the 'unknown' attachments btwn the decking and the
framing </FONT> In this case you can direct the roofer to
fasten the roof as often as you want. I had a PE do an analysis for
a sure-fire acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given:
90 mph wind zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV
array (modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if
the roofing panels are fastened every 4" along each seam you are in the
clear. <FONT color=#0070c0>No doubt, that seems like quite a few
fasteners.</FONT> He did not address the decking-to-framing
attachment, <FONT color=#0070c0>So worst case scenario, you get a 90+ mph
wind that takes the array, the metal roof <U>and the decking</U> for
a ride to the ground,</FONT><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,112,192)"> (HAS
ANYONE SEEN OR HAD THIS HAPPEN?) </SPAN><FONT color=#0070c0>when it
is determined that the decking wasn't properly attached to the framing,
who do ya call? PV installer, PE who stamped it, roofer? I'm
not looking for a place to point fingers, I'm just looking for some
insight on this so i understand our responsibilities a bit better. I
realize that it would be onerous to confirm the number and placement of
decking to framing attachments) </FONT>but while the roof is off you
could add as many fasteners as you want. If the structure of the
roof is in question I would definitely have a PE look at it and stamp the
plans before proceeding, but once you have everything under the roof
robust and approved, you are primed and ready for a worry-free,
penetration-free S-5!-to-standing-seam array install.</P>
<DIV class=im>
<P
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px !important; TEXT-INDENT: 0px !important; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px !important; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px !important; PADDING-TOP: 0px !important">In
another email string someone mentioned issues with S-5!s slipping down the
roof due to snow which is why I recommend attaching at every seam and
breaking out that torque-wrench when installing. <BR
style="TEXT-INDENT: 0px !important"></P>
<P
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px !important; TEXT-INDENT: 0px !important; MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px !important; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px !important; PADDING-TOP: 0px !important">Good
luck!</P></DIV>...end of your msg</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>in response to Kris' suggestion, don't the 2x6's need to be
toe-nailed into the 'rafters' on either side? or in this case toe-nailed
into the beams? which probably wouldn't be much different than the
'inadvisable' lag bolting into them.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>cheers,</DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=im>benn<BR><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,32,96)"><FONT
face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy
Inc. </FONT></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><A
href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca"
target=_blank>benn@daystarsolar.ca</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<HR>
</DIV>From: <A href="mailto:atruitt@gmail.com"
target=_blank>atruitt@gmail.com</A><BR>Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2010 11:30:40
-0600<BR>To: <A href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=h5><BR>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready
roof<BR><BR><BR>If you ask me this is a dream scenario. The scary
thing about S-5!s is that you rarely know how often the roofing panels are
attached to the decking and how well the decking is attached to the
framing. In this case you can direct the roofer to fasten the roof
as often as you want. I had a PE do an analysis for a sure-fire
acceptable attachment method for a standing seam roof given: 90 mph wind
zone, 18" wide standing seam roofing panels, flush-mounted PV array
(modules to rail to S-5!s, no tilt legs), and his result was that if the
roofing panels are fastened every 4" along each seam you are in the
clear. He did not address the decking-to-framing attachment, but
while the roof is off you could add as many fasteners as you want.
If the structure of the roof is in question I would definitely have a PE
look at it and stamp the plans before proceeding, but once you have
everything under the roof robust and approved, you are primed and ready
for a worry-free, penetration-free S-5!-to-standing-seam array
install.<BR>In another email string someone mentioned issues with S-5!s
slipping down the roof due to snow which is why I recommend attaching at
every seam and breaking out that torque-wrench when installing.
<BR><BR>Good luck!<SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>Andrew Truitt</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>NABCEP Certified PV Installer<SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">™</SPAN> (ID#
032407-66)</SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"></SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>Truitt</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Renewable</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Energy</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"> </SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)">Consulting</SPAN><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,102,0)"><BR>(202) 486-7507</SPAN><BR><A
href="http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713"
target=_blank>http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-<SPAN>truitt</SPAN>/8/622/713</A><BR><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: rgb(0,153,0)"><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125); FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN></SPAN><BR><BR>"Don't
get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to
fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless!"<BR><BR>~William
McDonough<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Kristopher
Schmid <<A href="mailto:solman@legacysolar.com"
target=_blank>solman@legacysolar.com</A>> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#0000ff>What about screwing in double 2x6s flush
to the roof deck between the beams where your feet will attach and lag
bolting into that? Definitely check with the beam manufacturer
first, though.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT
color=#0000ff>Kris</FONT><BR>Legacy Solar<BR>864 Clam Falls
Trail<BR>Frederic, WI 54837<BR>715-653-4295<BR><A
href="mailto:solman@legacysolar.com"
target=_blank>solman@legacysolar.com</A><BR><A
href="http://www.legacysolar.com" target=_blank>www.legacysolar.com</A>
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> <A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A> [mailto:<A
href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
target=_blank>re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Scott McCalmont<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 20,
2010 12:00 AM<BR><B>To:</B> RE-wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re:
[RE-wrenches] The perfect solar ready roof<BR>In general, you
shouldn't drill or cut the flanges on engineered wood beams. I think
that eliminates lag screws into the rafters. They probably wouldn't
have the same pull-out strength as a lag screw into a conventional
rafter, either. <BR><BR>Scott<BR><BR>On Oct 19, 2010, at 7:58 PM,
Chris Daum wrote:<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN
style="TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; TEXT-INDENT: 0px; BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate; FONT: medium Helvetica; WHITE-SPACE: normal; LETTER-SPACING: normal; WORD-SPACING: 0px">
<DIV lang=EN-US>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000
face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN>Dear Wrenches:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000
face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000 face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN>I
have a composite (shingle) roof at hand, and the owner wants to upgrade
it to a metal roof and install a 5kw+ array on it. The
rafters are those (sort of) particle board I-beams covered with 1/2"
plywood (and shingles). What's the best metal roofing you could
suggest--and would you beef up the wood to lag into?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000
face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000
face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN>Thanks for all your
input.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000
face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#800000 face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN>
<DIV align=left>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">Chris
Daum</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#000080 size=2 face="Comic Sans MS">Oasis
Montana Inc.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#000080 size=2
face="Comic Sans MS">406-777-4309</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT color=#000080 size=2
face="Comic Sans MS">406-777-0830 fax</FONT><FONT color=#000080 size=3
face="Comic Sans MS"><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>List
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