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Jamie, yeah i know it's a bit touchy, but it's a hornet nest that is just being realized in this region and needs to be shaken up a bit. I will look for that article you mentioned. <div><br><div>Other Wrenches, thank you very much for your comments, they are noted and very much appreciated.<br><div><br></div><div>As with many trades (auto mechanics, carpenters, plumbers, welders, .....) there will always be do-it-yourself'ers, which is completely fine. However, each of these trades does follow a specific scope of work for a variety of tasks that they are specifically trained to do, and to do it safely! I mean, who's gonna tell someone that they can't replace their own car's brake pads or CV axle, even thou they have little or no experience or training and could completely bung up the job and on the next drive have no brakes or messed up vehicle handling and as a result get in an accident, injuring themselves or someone else. </div><div>That said, IMO if someone is to be 'trained' as a 'solar installer' they should be trained <u>at the very least</u>, in all relevant electrical theory <u>and code</u>, the electrical hazards and how to protect yourself from associated hazards, having proper fall prevention/protection training, experience/training in various aspects of roof work and safety, and general workplace hazards and of course how to safely install systems with good quality workmanship (quality workmanship is as much a learned attribute as it is a moral one).</div><div><br></div><div>The way i see it is that regardless of how much training you, me or the next guy has, each job will only be done to the personal standards of the person preforming the work, then maybe a supervisor and last but not least, hopefully a competent and thorough inspector. </div><div><br></div><div>Nonetheless, proper training needs to be available for folks to be recognized as professionals in their respective fields and when an 'industry' decides its time to draw a line in the sand regarding who can 'officially' do what within that industry, there is bound to be much debate, many view points and varied insights; and who better to ask for these view points and insights than the creme de la creme of the industry. Again, thank you very much Wrenches, for your comments.</div><div><br></div><div>cheers,</div><div>benn<br><span class="ecxecxecxecxEC_Apple-style-span" style="color:rgb(0, 32, 96)"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. </font></span><div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">benn@daystarsolar.ca</font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </font></div><div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY
</font></div><div><br></div></div><br><br><br><br><hr id="stopSpelling">From: jjohnson@spefl.com<br>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<br>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2010 15:25:35 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] What is a solar installer...?<br><br>
<table align="center" style="" bgcolor="#ffffff" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="vertical-align:top"><div style="padding:5px;overflow-x:auto"><span style="font-family:Verdana;color:#000000;font-size:10pt"><div> Benn,</div>
<div> </div>
<div>You kind of smacked the hornets nest on this one, the IAEI (International Association of Electrical Inspectors) magazine had a good article on this topic in the recent March/April issue.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I think the argument is best framed around the experience required to obtain the solar contractors/installers license if offered. In some states such as FL no real solar electric or electrical experience is required to obtain the solar contractors license, many individuals are currently qualifying for the license based on solar thermal experience only which does not necessarily qualify one to perform med-high vDC installations. In all fairness some individuals with extensive solar electric experience and a comprehensive understanding of the NEC are qualifying for the solar contractors license in FL; however, they are in the minority.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>20 years ago when the solar contractors license was originally offered in FL the electrical board was approached to grant permission for a single pv panel at less than 50vDC, the prevailing thought was what could go wrong at low voltage with minimal short circuit current, now that we have grid tied systems approaching 600vDC and with the recent high profile solar electric related fires; FL (along with other states), is reviewing the experience requirements to insure that individuals qualifying to obtain the solar contractors license actually have wiring experience, and if not, then some states are starting to require that the wiring be performed by licensed electricians. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>In FL for example per the electrical contractors licensing board no commercial vAC or vDC wiring and no residential vAC wiring is allowed to be installed by solar contractors due to the lack of experience required to obtain the license. This is also reflected in the minimum liability/property damage insurance required for the solar contractors license.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>As far as solar and electrical contractors go, a 40 hour comprehensive hands on training class or NABCEP certification is a good requirement to have to ensure that the quality of the installation is above average; however neither teach or require much actual wiring experience and many find it difficult to pass the NABCEP exam. In the march NABCEP exam sitting in Orlando FL, I believe only 6 out of 24 made it onto the certified list for FL which is low (2 of the 6 are instructors), and although many of those sitting for the exam were solar contractors, only a few actually passed the exam, even though they had passed the FL solar contractors exam, in some areas of the country the NABCEP pass rate is closer to 50%.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>At the end of the day what we all want is a safe, reliable (with customer expectations met), code compliant installation that does not pose a life-safety issue at some point down the road (25 - 40 years). Minimal experience requirements may allow more individuals to become licensed and own their own shop installing solar electric systems, but that is not in the best interest of the grid tied solar electrical industry IMHO as we go forward.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Concerning homeowners pulling owner/builder permits for plug and play solar electric, I think it is a bad idea from a life-safety perspective and I don't believe that the NEC code making panel will allow plug and play into existing branch circuits any time soon (the homeowner installed route), existing branch circuits are rated for loads only and are not rated for both power generation and loads at the same time, this is no different than a homeowner plugging a generator into an existing branch circuit designed for loads, neither are allowed in FL. </div>
<div> </div>
<div>The plug and play connected to an existing branch circuit route appears to be more likely targeted to the unlicensed inexperienced handyman who can't pull a permit for solar electric.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Going back to the nest now!</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>Jamie Johnson</div>
<div>NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer</div>
<div>#031310-118</div>
<div>General Manager</div>
<div>SOLAR POWER ELECTRIC</div>
<div>EC13001765</div>
<div>(941)380-0098</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
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<div id="ecxwmQuoteWrapper">-------- Original Message --------<br>Subject: [RE-wrenches] What is a solar installer...?<br>From: benn kilburn <<a href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca">benn@daystarsolar.ca</a>><br>Date: Thu, October 14, 2010 4:11 pm<br>To: Wrenches <<a href="mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org</a>><br><br>
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Wrenches,
<div>a colleague of mine is looking for feedback to the following email he received regarding PV installers and electrical work. I have responded to him, however, I am quite interested to hear this list's response....</div>
<div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br>
<div>LETTER--</div>
<div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d">'Colleague' - next week Alberta’s “major</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> municipalities” electrical chief inspectors are</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> getting together to talk about issues. One item</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> I have asked to put on the agenda is</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> qualifications of solar installers. I hope to</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> see a start on forming some type of agreement</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> on is who is qualified to do what work on a</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> solar installation and what is considered</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> electrical work that only electricians can</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> perform. There seems to be courses popping up</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> all over to teach everyman to be a solar</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> installer, but what work is clearly reserved for</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> electricians to do? The Safety Codes Act speaks</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> to Electrical Systems, CE (Canadian Electrical) Code defines</font><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="ecxApple-style-span"> electrical installation and electrical equipment.</span></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> </font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> What I hope we accomplish is a stance we can</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> take to the EIAA (Electrical Inspectors Association of Alberta) conference then to</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> Apprenticeship and Industry Training who </font><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="ecxApple-style-span">ultimately enforces who does work in the trade.</span></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> </font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> To me the PV module racking can be done by</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> anyone, but almost all of the rest of the</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> installation – from wire pulling to</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> interconnecting modules, mounting of the</font><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="ecxApple-style-span"> inverters etc falls clearly into the scope of practice for electricians.</span></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> </font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> One of the bigger players in the industry is</font><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> saying “its now getting to be all plug and play”</font><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="ecxApple-style-span"> and anyone can be an installer.</span></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> </font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> Hoping an agreement like this can make it a</font><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)" class="ecxApple-style-span"> level playing field and consistent across the Province.</span></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> </font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" color="#1f497d"> What are your thoughts?</font></div>
<div><br></div>
<div> </div>
<div>BACK TO ME</div>
<div>my thoughts are similar to the ones above, that the racking alone can be installed by any 'properly trained' person. However pretty much every other aspect of a PV install directly falls under the scope of an electrician and needs to be preformed by a journeyman or apprentice under the supervision of a journeyman electrician.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>the following paragraph is from recent past EIAA technical conference minutes.</div>
<div> "Alberta Municipal Affairs (AMA) was asked (earlier in 2009 by a Municipality) for an opinion on the Permit Regulation regarding Homeowner Permits. The Permit Regulation states a homeowner may be issued a permit where the electrical system serves that dwelling. A photovoltaic system that is tied to the grid (utility interactive) serves other than that dwelling. The response back from AMA confirmed utility interactive PV systems do serve other than the dwelling and as such permit issuers should not be issuing homeowner permits for utility interactive PV systems."</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>My thinking is that this would include the addition of 'plug and play' modules/inverters to an existing system as well ...any comments on this one?</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>cheers,</div>
<div>benn</div><br><span style="color:rgb(0,32,96)" class="ecxecxecxecxEC_Apple-style-span"><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. </font></span>
<div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'"><a href="mailto:benn@daystarsolar.ca">benn@daystarsolar.ca</a></font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">780-906-7807 </font></div>
<div><font class="ecxApple-style-span" face="'Franklin Gothic Medium'">HAVE A SUNNY DAY</font></div></div></div></div></div>
<hr>
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