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<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=078020716-17092010>Wayne,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN
class=078020716-17092010></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=078020716-17092010>Your
statement that "<FONT color=#000000>The unit will turn off automatically once
input water temp reaches its programed output temp." seems to contradict the
statement from Bill saying "<SPAN lang=EN>All tankless, including solar
compatible (heaters which modulate fire rate based on _inlet temperature_) have
a minimum fire rate which is well above zero."</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=078020716-17092010><FONT
color=#000000><SPAN lang=EN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=078020716-17092010><FONT
color=#000000><SPAN lang=EN>Am i missing
something?</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=078020716-17092010><FONT
color=#000000><SPAN lang=EN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=078020716-17092010><FONT
color=#000000><SPAN lang=EN>Kris</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P>Legacy Solar<BR>864 Clam Falls Trail<BR>Frederic, WI
54837<BR>715-653-4295<BR>solman@legacysolar.com<BR>www.legacysolar.com </P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT
face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Wayne
Irwin<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, September 17, 2010 9:40 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Wrenches<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for
SDHW<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>In our off grid home I installed a Rinnai
propane tank less to support<BR>the double pump drain-back system and have had
no problems. <BR>The tips that I suggest are: that the tank less be flushed
out regularly, <BR>even when not being used in-order to reduce any sediment.
<BR>If the water is hard, add a softener or at least a micro filter. <BR>Scale
build up can also be a problem. <BR>If this tank less unit is being used as a
back up, turn it off unless needed.<BR>The unit will turn off automatically
once input water temp reaches its programed output temp.<BR>However, the
initial water flow is cold enough to trigger the unit to fire-up, wasting
<BR>100,000 btu's of fuel for a minute or so.<BR><BR><BR><FONT
color=#76923c>Wayne Irwin</FONT><FONT color=#76923c><BR>Director of
Engineering<BR></FONT><FONT color=#76923c>Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
</FONT><FONT color=#76923c><BR></FONT><FONT color=#76923c></FONT><FONT
color=#76923c>State Licensed Solar Contractor</FONT><FONT
color=#76923c><BR></FONT><FONT color=#76923c>License # CVC56695 </FONT><BR><A
href="mailto:PureEnergySolar@hotmail.com">Wayne@PureEnergySolar.com</A> <BR><A
href="http://pureenergysolar.net/"
target=_blank>http://pureenergysolar.com</A> <BR><FONT color=#76923c>352
377-6527 Office</FONT><FONT color=#76923c><BR></FONT><FONT color=#76923c>352
336-3299 Fax</FONT><FONT color=#76923c><BR></FONT><FONT
color=#76923c></FONT><BR>
<P class=ecxecxecxEC_EC_EC_EC_EC_MsoNormal><FONT color=#76923c><SPAN
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">The content of this
message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not the intended
recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is
prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this
message from your computer system. Thank
you.</SPAN></FONT></P><BR><BR><BR><BR>> From:
solman@legacysolar.com<BR>> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org<BR>>
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 09:01:30 -0500<BR>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On
Demand Heaters for SDHW<BR>> <BR>> It all depends on whether you are
talking financial payback or wise energy<BR>> use. The people who use the
least amount of hot water are the people who<BR>> will experience the
greatest energy use savings. They are a great option<BR>> for weekend
cabins since you don't have to remember to turn off the water<BR>> heater
when you leave and you don't have to wait for the tank to heat up<BR>> when
you return.<BR>> <BR>> Kris<BR>> <BR>> Legacy Solar<BR>> 864
Clam Falls Trail<BR>> Frederic, WI 54837<BR>> 715-653-4295<BR>>
solman@legacysolar.com<BR>> www.legacysolar.com<BR>> -----Original
Message-----<BR>> From: re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org<
br>> [mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
Todd Cory<BR>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 1:55 PM<BR>> To:
RE-wrenches<BR>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for
SDHW<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> The payback on a demand heater in energy
savings is like 50+ years. A<BR>> traditional tank heater, super insulated
has very little loss.<BR>> <BR>> Todd<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
Peter Parrish wrote:<BR>> You’re right, Todd, there is often a space
limitation. But overall, the<BR>> tankless approach is more economical,
eliminating the need to keep 80 odd<BR>> gallons of water perpetually up to
temperature. Remember the solar heated<BR>> water is "make up water" and
can contribute to the temperature of the<BR>> traditional water heater only
while hot water is being used. So, my guess is<BR>> that 1/2 of the day in
a residence the traditional tank is keeping water up<BR>> to temperature
for no apparent use.<BR>> <BR>> - Peter<BR>> <BR>> Peter T.
Parrish, Ph.D., President<BR>> California Solar Engineering, Inc.<BR>>
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065<BR>> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert.
031806-26<BR>> peter.parrish@calsolareng.com<BR>> Ph 323-258-8883,
Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
________________________________________<BR>> From:
re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org<BR>>
[mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Todd
Cory<BR>> Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2010 8:17 AM<BR>> To:
RE-wrenches<BR>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for
SDHW<BR>> <BR>> I know this was not the question, but this whole thread
is predicated on the<BR>> use of a demand hot water heater. Unless there is
a space limitation, why<BR>> would this be done over a traditional tank
unit?<BR>> <BR>> Todd<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> Bill Loesch
wrote:<BR>&g t; <BR>> Kris,<BR>> <BR>> Boiler manufacturers today
get starry-eyed when their machines are able to<BR>> provide a 10:1
turndown ratio. Even the venerable natural draft Bosch 125BS<BR>> *
provided a better than 4:1 turndown ratio and all the condensing
powervent<BR>> units compared below regularly offer 10:1 and some better
than 20:1. With<BR>> each benefit comes a disadvantage, like with current
production cars,<BR>> serious repair/maintenance takes place primarily at
the dealer since they<BR>> are usually the only ones to pony up for the
multitude of specialized test<BR>> equipment. I find it a bit of backward
progress to have to tell someone that<BR>> the reason they don't have
reliable hot water is because they don't have the<BR>> current software
update (due in no small part to the marketing gurus who<BR>> have no qualms
about using the customer as the proving grounds for their<BR>> product).
Many plumbers have no clue to the w orkings of a combustion<BR>> analyzer,
a necessary tool for negative pressure gas valve tuning and<BR>>
replacement (and a multitude<BR>> of other tasks where the blue flame is no
longer sufficient to be able to<BR>> deliver optimum performance).<BR>>
<BR>> Your Takagi needs AC power to (in order of decreasing current
requirements<BR>> for a generic power vented tankless)<BR>> power the
freeze protection heating elements<BR>> run the primary combustion
fan<BR>> run the secondary combustion fan<BR>> provide control
to<BR>> gas valve<BR>> water valve<BR>> control board (oftentimes
with digital display) which provides the<BR>> logic and timing circuits for
the multitude of sensors and limit switches<BR>> and remote controls and
wireless remote controls etc., etc.<BR>> <BR>> Long live the
thermocouple.<BR>> <BR>> My compliments on your simplistic approach to
coordinate the solar storag e<BR>> tank and tankless. Simplicity is the
ultimate sophistication.<BR>> <BR>> Bill Loesch<BR>> Solar 1 - Saint
Louis Solar<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> PS I reiterate, despite other
RE-Wrenches list comments to the contrary<BR>> about<BR>> "modulate
to<BR>> zero", NONE of ANY of the Big Five tankless manufacturers that
market to<BR>> North America have a low fire rate which modulates to zero
or anything near<BR>> it for the very same reason that you will never get a
trickle of hot water<BR>> out of any tankless water heater. (‾0.5 gpm
minimum activation flow<BR>> requirement)<BR>> <BR>> Comparing
condensing heaters with ‾200,000 max BTU/h input<BR>> Bosch GWH C 800 ES
19,900 BTU/h<BR>> Noritz NRC 111 11,000<BR>> Paloma no condensing
heaters<BR>> Rinnai RC98HPe 9,500<BR>> Takagi T-H2 13,000<BR>>
<BR>> Thanks for your patience, I hope it was not too techn ical.<BR>>
<BR>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Parrish"<BR>>
<peter.parrish@calsolareng.com><BR>> To: "'RE-wrenches'"
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><BR>> Sent: Tuesday, September 14,
2010 10:37 AM<BR>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] On Demand Heaters for
SDHW<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> We have a SDHW client that wants to
replace his old water heater with<BR>> a new tankless water heater. We do a
SDHW system about once a year,<BR>> and only for clients that are getting a
PV system from us to begin<BR>> with. So this is not a<BR>> big business
line for us and we are behind the curve in terms of<BR>> understanding the
latest technologies.<BR>> <BR>> As I remember from an excellent workshop
that I took about four years<BR>> ago: when used in conjunction with a SDWH
system, the tankless heater<BR>> should<BR>> <BR>> (1) Modulate heat
input based on INPUT water temperature<BR>> (2) Be able to modula te down
to ZERO BTU/hr<BR>> <BR>> The only unit I knew of back then was the
Bosch 125BS (I believe).<BR>> Today I can't find any bigger units that fit
the above requirements.<BR>> <BR>> Short of using two Bosch 125BS units
in parallel, does anyone have a<BR>> solution?<BR>> <BR>> -
Peter<BR>> <BR>> Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President<BR>> California
Solar Engineering, Inc.<BR>> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA
90065<BR>> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parrish@calsolareng.com<BR>> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108,
Fax 323-258-8885<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>>
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<BR>> <BR>> --<BR>> <BR>> Todd Cory<BR>> KE6SXS<BR>>
toddcory@finestplanet.com<BR>> Mt. Shasta Energy Services<BR>> License
C-10 #811428<BR>> P.O. Box 689<BR>> Mt. Shasta, CA. 96067<BR>> (530)
926-1079<BR>> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
<!--[endif]--><BR>> “I'd put my money on solar energy...I hope we
don't have to wait till oil<BR>> and coal run out before we tackle
that."<BR>> ∞ Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey
Firestone,<BR>> March 1931<BR>> <!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->
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