<html><head><style type="text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><DIV>Bill,</DIV>
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<DIV>You and John Wiles have shown leadership on the module grounding issue. It would be good to know who at UL is preventing a universal solution so that this issue can be resolved at the highest level once and for all. What do you suggest for the course of action?</DIV>
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<DIV>Joel Davidson<BR></DIV>
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<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Bill Brooks <billbrooks7@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Cc:</SPAN></B> Christopher Flueckiger <Christopher.Flueckiger@us.ul.com>; Tim Zgonena <timothy.p.zgonena@us.ul.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Mon, September 13, 2010 8:44:39 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason<BR></FONT><BR>Peter,<BR><BR>No tone was intended. The theme of your post was good, but the subject was<BR>misleading. The fact that you were shocked twice by my questioning your<BR>subject means that you misunderstood the tone of my questioning of your<BR>subject title. I misunderstood your post and reacted to a very negative<BR>subject heading that gave the impression that the WEEB product was
generally<BR>experiencing its demise. <BR><BR>I have heard of a few companies that have withdrawn information about the<BR>WEEB in their literature, but I was unaware that SunPower was one of them. <BR><BR>Grounding of module frames has been a big issue for over a decade and module<BR>manufacturers have not done a lot to help the installer in this area. When<BR>UL cracked down on the haphazard way that grounding was being approached in<BR>the field, it became a major issue. Manufacturers had to retest many of<BR>their products and provide details on the methods allowed in their manuals.<BR>Since adding grounding options to a module required additional testing which<BR>was expensive, many manufacturers went the easiest route to get approved.<BR>This was not good for products like the WEEB since it now required testing<BR>with every module type. In addition, my understanding is that UL has not<BR>allowed the WEEB on UL-listed products since the product
was not evaluated<BR>by UL and they do not have the test data that supports how it was evaluated.<BR>That may be the source of the issue with SunPower--you would have to ask<BR>them directly.<BR><BR>We need a more generic approach to grounding and that is what is currently<BR>underway. Grounding and bonding is extremely important and jurisdictions are<BR>focused on it for obvious safety reasons. We need solutions that are clearly<BR>reliable and straightforward so that installers and jurisdictional<BR>authorities don't have to constantly be revisiting the issue.<BR><BR>Bill.<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org"
ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] On Behalf Of Peter<BR>Parrish<BR>Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 7:18 AM<BR>To: 'RE-wrenches'<BR>Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; 'Tim Zgonena'<BR>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of Reason<BR><BR>Bill (and Chris and Tim),<BR><BR>"Be a little bit more careful in your choice of subjects..."?<BR><BR>I am shocked, shocked that you would use that tone with me. <BR><BR>If you would re-read my post, I talked about three things: <BR><BR>(1) SunPower's no longer supporting the WEEB clip technology and regressing<BR>to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT. <BR><BR>You are right about the insertion of the star washer between the lug and<BR>module frame. I wonder what SP's response to that might be...<BR><BR>(2) As for SP's comment that they pulled the WEEB clip, "due to UL testing<BR>changes". Does anyone close enough to the situation know what this means?<BR><BR>(3) I
never mentioned the SP IFF clip. I mentioned the Tyco SolKlip. <BR><BR>SP mentions the IFF in their literature but do not offer it to their dealers<BR>(as far as I know), and I haven't been able to find it yet in their product<BR>literature, except for a small low-resolution image. I assumed that the Tyco<BR>SolKlip was a different component -- however it may be similar or may be<BR>rebranded by SP as the IFF -- I don't know.<BR><BR>Bonding PV arrays and their supporting structures is complicated subject and<BR>in my experience is one of the more frequently examined aspects of PV<BR>installations by inspectors (along with bonding and grounding the other<BR>components). So it would seem to be an apt subject for discussion by those<BR>of us actively installing PV systems subject to inspection by the AHJ.<BR><BR>- Peter <BR>
<BR>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President<BR>California Solar Engineering, Inc.<BR>820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065<BR>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26<BR><A href="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com" ymailto="mailto:peter.parrish@calsolareng.com">peter.parrish@calsolareng.com</A> <BR>Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks<BR>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:50 PM<BR>To: 'RE-wrenches'<BR>Cc: 'Christopher Flueckiger'; Tim Zgonena<BR>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] The
Demise of Reason<BR><BR>Peter,<BR><BR>Be a little more careful in your choice of subjects. You are talking about<BR>the SunPower IFF clip. I have not heard this story, but I don't doubt it.<BR>There have been significant changes at UL and ETL, the two largest listers<BR>of PV modules, in the area of evaluating grounding equipment for PV modules.<BR><BR><BR>Unfortunately, the shift to overly conservative approaches to module<BR>grounding has caused huge problems with field installations. To make matters<BR>worse, installation manuals from PV modules have been required to get<BR>extremely specific about the only methods allowed to ground and bond the<BR>module frames. This conservative approach has shut the door on many methods<BR>that are far superior to the methods shown, because of the cost of<BR>evaluating these products or due to lack of cooperation between UL and ETL.<BR><BR>Finally, many of the module manufacturer's installation manuals, the ones
we<BR>are supposed to believe, actually violate the listings of the products they<BR>recommend. The ILSCO GBL-4DBT lay-in lug is the most famous example of these<BR>mistakes. Several prominent installation manuals state that a stainless<BR>starwasher must be installed under ILSCO lug. Although this will work, it is<BR>a violation of the listing of the lug. Yet it is in the installation manual<BR>and it is one of only a very few options--and it is wrong. What are we to<BR>think of this whole situation? It is out of control and messed up.<BR><BR>The problem lies in the poorly worded UL1703 that has not been updated in<BR>this area since the changes in application of the standard started some 3 or<BR>4 years ago. There have been several attempts to get this problem resolved,<BR>but the attempts have not made it to fruition. There is a new movement afoot<BR>to deal with this once and for all, but I'm still a little
skeptical.<BR><BR>Bill.<BR><BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: <A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A><BR>[mailto:<A href="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org" ymailto="mailto:re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org">re-wrenches-bounces@lists.re-wrenches.org</A>] On Behalf Of Peter<BR>Parrish<BR>Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 1:49 PM<BR>To: 'RE-wrenches'<BR>Subject: [RE-wrenches] The Demise of WEEB<BR><BR>We were informed a while ago that SunPower no longer "supports" their<BR>version of the WEEB clip "due to UL testing changes." (unspecified) and<BR>appears to have regressed to the ILSCO GBL-4DBT lugs with SS star washers,<BR>lock washer, nut and specific torque requirements.<BR><BR>Most people I have spoken with feel that the lug approach, though a<BR>competent means of bonding PV modules, is awkward and
time consuming,<BR>compared to the WEEB clips.<BR><BR>What happened wrt UL testing and how is CSA listing affected?<BR><BR>I seem to remember a video showing a conventional lug-based bond fail under<BR>test as par of a WEEB promo. I hope I can find it and take a look at it<BR>again.<BR><BR>There also is a Tyco SolKlip that SunPower is apparently looking at but no<BR>word yet from SP, and it is not clear that the SolKlip has been affected by<BR>"UL testing changes".<BR><BR>Any info on the UL testing changes would be much appreciated.<BR><BR>- Peter<BR><BR> <BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President<BR>California Solar Engineering, Inc.<BR>820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065<BR>CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26<BR><A
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